Author Topic: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3  (Read 1546 times)

Vbar

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Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« on: July 31, 2021, 04:21:38 PM »
Hi, I owned a great ddrum 3 system and regretfully sold it before moving from Nashville to care for my parents in Mississippi. Now I’m looking for something with comparable playability and am considering the 2box Drumit 3 or 5 Mk 2. The ddrum 3 had a remarkable 1000 levels of velocity, (compared to midi’s 128 levels), dual engine per output, and pressure sensitive pads which allowed nuances of pitch bend, muting, etc.
I heard 2box was the next generation lineage of ddrum and wonder if these same capabilities are in the modules? Of course I know it’s got great sounds and easier USB loading but I need to find out if it will accomplish the same playability that the ddrum had. And if so, which pads work best. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? Thank you!
Vince

welshsteve

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2021, 06:49:53 AM »
I know what you're talking about, I was a Ddrum4 and 3 user back in the early 2000s... should have been the industry leader! I guess the market wasn't ready yet... defo still hold up today though 20-30 years later!!

Anyway, pressure sensitivity? Yeah 2box doesn't do that nor does it handle position sensing.

As far as I know, the only thing which handles pressure is possibly the Pearl Emerge (which IS a decent module defo have a check of it) as it uses Korg's Wave drum tech. To what degree, I am not sure having not played it myself. And it might be limited to only the snare.

You can get position sensing with an edrumin trigger interface using VST as a sound source. The VST will have to have the edge sounds. SSD5 and Superior drummer 3 do. You would need a centre mounted cone trigger for it to work.

The Roland TD20, TD30, TD27 and TD50 can do position. The 27 and 50 are definitely ahead of the curve with the Digital snare/ride and now Hihat. It all depends if the sounds move you (definitely check as many videos out as you can as they tend to vary)

BUT...

Where 2box does beat the Ddrum is in the sound. For starters the sounds are stereo samples, whereas on the ddrum they were mono. And you can have way more layers than the ddrum system could, multi sampling was in the early stages as a concept back in the 90's and early 2000s.

I remember being very impressed with the position and pressure sensing on the ddrum4 and 3... but in real world playing, hardly ever using it. I don't think it's achievable with Mesh head triggering though, it depended on having a piezo on a plate under mylar head with a foam cushion between the plate and the head.

Maybe someone on here can suggest something else?

Btw, Ddrum3/4 do pop up on eBay and reverb from time to time.

Vbar

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2021, 04:16:57 PM »
Thanks very much for your input! I’ll check out the other modules you mentioned.
What about the levels of velocity? Would you by chance know if the Drumit’s trigger inputs are separate & react with more levels of velocity than midi’s 128 levels? (Even if not up to the Drum’s 1000 levels), Or perhaps they are even routed only through midi?
Thanks again… very helpful info!
Vince

kenjwright

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2021, 07:09:39 PM »
I remember being very impressed with the position and pressure sensing on the ddrum4 and 3... but in real world playing, hardly ever using it. I don't think it's achievable with Mesh head triggering though, it depended on having a piezo on a plate under mylar head with a foam cushion between the plate and the head.

I've done testing between mylar and mesh heads on the ddrum4 cast pads and there is no distinguishable difference in positional accuracy. I do find it odd that positioning is so often dismissed as not having much value! Cymbal swishes and press roles are not realistically possible without decent position and velocity sensing. So I suppose it depends on your playing style  :)

Cheers!

Ken
Ludwig Acoustics, Paiste Cymbals, Drum Brothers Djun Djuns, ddrum4, Pintech Cymbals, MegaDrum56, eDRUMin-4

welshsteve

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 05:23:58 PM »
Do you mean the cast precision pads? The ones with the metal plate and foam disk under the head? If so then yeah, you will still get position and pressure with these on a ddrum3 or ddrum4 (sound depending)

The latter pads which had an edge trigger and just a mesh, think they were called cast mesh pads or something, or anything that resembles it on a Roland pad, position and pressure won't work.

The 1000 steps of dynamics was based on it being an analogue triggering system. However it would have still been chopped up in 127 via midi.

Also, the analogue triggering didn't have cross talk cancel. I remember having lots of headaches trying to get a rim and and a head to not trigger each other, constantly messing with the gain and threshold.

But it was still a great set up!

I understand your point with position should be more of a thing. Personally in 99% of my playing with bands, I don't long for it. As for cymbal swells, the set up I got (Pearl Mimic Pro) at the moment does it well, depending on what cymbal trigger I am using. LV triggered cymbals are not as expressive in this regard as rubber cymbals. But having lots of layers on the bow and the edge, plus a swell engine, does a reasonable job in creating a swell.

kenjwright

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 09:20:52 PM »
Yes, I was referring to the 1st gen dd4 cast precision pads with the reflector plate. I have no experience with the later mesh pads but seems positioning was sacrificed for silence.

It's that wonderful analogue triggering that helps keep the latency around 2ms (and under 2ms for the dd3)  :)

Cheers!
Ludwig Acoustics, Paiste Cymbals, Drum Brothers Djun Djuns, ddrum4, Pintech Cymbals, MegaDrum56, eDRUMin-4

welshsteve

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2021, 01:33:48 PM »
Yeah sure man. Ddrum did a lot of amazing things. I was sad when that brand died in 2005. 2box defo moved it forward with the sound and multi samples, but they did lose a fair bit in expressiveness on the drums. While mesh is the standard, I much prefer mylar head, even if they are acoustically louder with that "clack" sound they make.

Personally in gig terms, this is a good thing. That "clack" accurately gives the transients that over a drum sample via monitors on a stage, requires much less of the drums being pumped out of the monitors.

photobeat

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2021, 05:08:16 PM »
I have the drumit 5 ver 1 and the ddrum 3. The speed is still unmatched of the ddrum 3 and other ddrum modules. Motorola made the chip and could no longer make them so every module since the 3 has barely kept up with features. The ddrum 3had the positional sensing and random and multii sample, still beyond modern modules BUT it was a lot of fiddling. Easier to just play the thing. IF you have the patience it is still the best. Of course cymbals aside as it can't do a decent 3 zone ride or HH so IMO the ddrum 3 with your ancient mac and SCSI set up and a Roland modue with digital cymbals is probably the only way you can really play in the pocket e drumming, even jazz. The 2 box HH is better on the new version but with all the boxes and stuff you can buy for other brand cyms it is not on the Roland level. The 2 box  drum sounds are far superior then Roland and compareable to the ddrum samples which you can put in it.  I think I would look at the Pearl mimic as the compromise for one box that does it all well. Similar two box sounding drums, very good but not great cymbals compared to Roland. Otherwise any ddrum module and a Roland TD-50 for just the ride and HH and crashes would be the best e-drum set up I can think of.  big $$$$$ tho Maybe a used TD20 I don't know but I think Roland wins for cyms. Ddrum, 2box, mimic for drum sounds. (VST aside)
 


Vbar

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Re: Levels of velocity and pressure compared to ddrum 3
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2021, 05:06:14 AM »
Thanks to everyone for the valuable information… Very helpful and I am much obliged!