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Odd delay problem

Started by Dobly, March 09, 2021, 03:14:03 AM

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Dobly

If I play quarter notes on the bass drum and snare, all is well.

If I add the ride cymbal to it, it is usually ok.

If I had the hats on the same beat, every turns the rubbish.. Snare hit come a split second late, the ride may come a bit late or not sound at all.

Surely the Drumit3 has at least 4 note polyphony. What would cause this..

I have noticed this before while playing, on the times were everything comes down together (like ALL the time). A snare hit will come after the beat. I have isolated the issue now..

logihack

i have this "delay" just when playing with songs, or metronome from module.

Dobly

There must be a reason and a fix. This a show stopper. I have noticed it at times when playing, I'd hit the snare and sound comes a spilt second later. Or the Ride, comes a bit later.

Try playing a constant 4 beats together.

Dobly

I have posted a video of this issue on the edrum World group on Facebook.  Maybe someone there can help.


ANGR77

HI!

Here's what you can try to solve latency:
- try changing the Decay on your 2box from "infinite" to 10 for all pieces in your kit, it was found to help a lot. (Start with the hi-hat sound)

Best regards

Anders / www.Zourman.com /
Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

Dobly

Thanks Anders

The Decay setting to 10 helped a little but did not eliminate the problem.

Poking around I found for example the Randy Black kit 1 on the module did not have this issue. The difference between this stock kit and the kit with the issue is that the later was created with SDSE.

I examine the snares from both kits and found that the files in the Randy Black snare are much smaller than those in the Ludwig snare I created with SDSE. There are 2 reasons for this. First the RB snare is a tighter snare with a shorter sound. The Ludwig Black Beauty is a huge snare. The other issue and I almost dont want to say it, is the there is at least a second of silence at the end of all the wav the Ludwig snare.

So I extracted all the wavs out of the Ludwig snare and use Audacity to trim all the snare wavs. The did the same with the bassdrum. Tedious but I had to try it.

The shorter files were written back into dsnd format and I tried them on the kit. This, and Decay setting helped, but the problem is not gone.

Seems there is some limitation with the D3 and the size of files. Else I cannot explain why the Randy Black kit works perfectly.

I have orders new SD cards.

I am using SanDisk Ultra 80MB/s 32gb
and SandDisk Ultra 100MB/s 64gb

Both display the same issue.

I have ordered a couple of SanDisk Extreme 95MB/s 32gb cards.. I should have them in a day or too.


ANGR77

There is another thread somewhere on this forum...(probably SDSE related) where we discussed this issue. It was related to all drumits. One of the outcomes was the decay parameter. The problem affects SDSE generated samples from some VST vendors. (Not all)  I know I did something similar to what you did..,trimming down the samples and layers...but without any bigger success. We also had a discussion about the default tune settings for samples in 2box.


Best regards

Anders / www.Zourman.com
Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

Lustar

The main difference is that dsnd files exported with SDSE use a max tune of 0 by default, to keep the best possible sound quality. Samples from some VSTs like SD3 or BFD3 can also be much longer as you have noticed. The stock 2box .dsnd use a max tune of 4. It allows to tune up the dsnd instrument on the module and has a side effect or reducing the dsnd size. It can make all the difference.
I would recommend to set max tune to 4 in SDSE if you export bigger instruments and notice latency.
You can also set a maximum sample length for each instrument type on the second Samples page in the SDSE options. This way you should be able to reduce the length for the cymbals and hihat until it works for you.
It's also possible to quickly convert an exported kit to have a max tune of 4 with DSound Manager: on the Tune page browse or drag and drop the dsnd files, select Max Tune 4, click Tune. It will create new dsnd files with "+4" next to the original files.

The work in progress version of SDSE already sets Decay to 10 by default when creating a .dkit file to go with the exported dsnd instruments, it will be in the next version.

At the end of the Ludwig snare samples is it really silence or is there just a long almost silent tail if you increase the volume? Samples from VSTs can be much longer, some cymbals from BFD3 can have samples up to 30 seconds.
Since you have DrumIt Manager I would have recommended to use DSound Manager to trim the samples to a certain length, it's much faster: open a dsnd, go to the Tune page, select a maximum Length (and eventually increase Max Tune), click Tune.

If you still notice a problem once you have reduced the file sizes I would look at the SD card, maybe try different brands. Some cards can seem to work perfectly until you try bigger dsnd files. Some people also reported that the newer X-talk settings in the newer OS versions increased latency slightly so it's also something to check.

Dobly

Bloody unreal Lustar and another great and helpful response.

I just bought couple of SanDisk Extreme Pro SDHC 90/MBs 32gb cards and after a quick test (just the test kit that had the issue) the problem seems to be almost fixed...

Your tips will help a great deal.

Thanks

Dobly

Just curious Lustar.. Why does the size of the sound matter? Does not get get played from the SD cards, or is it copy to internal memory on the module every hit?

If the former, then if it's 25 seconds into a 30 second cymbal and hit it again, doesn't it just jump back to the start of the file again?

For a test I made a snare drum with 1 full minute of silence at the end of it. The module could not play it.

Lustar

The size of the sounds has to be related to how much data the module can read or process at a time. The SD card must affect how fast it can read new samples. The SD card can limit all this first if it's slower than what the module can do, and when the SD card is fast enough it looks like the module can reach a limit when processing sounds. It's not supposed to but when it was found that reducing Decay from infinite to 10 made a difference it seemed to confirm that somehow there's something about it.

That's good to know about the 1 minute dsnd. A while ago I did some tests with someone that reported the worst case of latency. We tested different versions of the same kit and it turned out that for him it wasn't the size of the individual dsnd from a kit that mattered. It would do the same even with a kit made from 1 sample per zone. It was only when reducing the length of the samples that it made a difference so it seemed to be the average length of all samples that he could play at a time. It was quite low for his setup, he could only play kits with short samples. He used acoustic triggers (home made if I remember correctly) and had to use x-talk settings due to vibrations.

It would be nice to have some test kits made from public domain samples that could be used as a benchmark. It would be a kit bank with a few test kits from long to short sample length (1 sample per zone, and another series of the same with many samples per zone). This way the results could be compared with the same kits and same Unit settings.