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Three Zone Snare

Started by tsss27, February 26, 2020, 12:13:08 AM

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tsss27

I've looked around a bit but must be searching for the wrong thing. It seems the only 3-zone snares are the expensive Yamaha ones (which have pretty mixed reviews on their durability,) the 2Box one, and the ATV one which doesn't work with the Drumit3.
So, how can I get all 3 snare zones? I do not want to lose the rim of another pad to do it, the snare has 3 zones and I want to use them all. Is the 2Box snare the only way to get this done? Or could I split the snare input and add a 3rd single-zone pad for the crossstick?

ANGR77

Hi!

A Good question!

The only way to get 3 zones using one snare input is through the Yamaha way to do it. Piezo, switch, switch trigger with a 10k resistor difference between the two switch triggers. So a 2box pad won’t do the job.

If not using the Yamaha style to do it - the only way to create 3 zone snare is by using another trigger input for the xsticks.

However...I was researching this...and created my own 3 zone implementation...and only used the snare input...look closely on this :
https://youtu.be/cFBrP3P_8kc

We will see if I launch this in the future...

Best regards

Anders / Zourman.com
Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

welshsteve

That's a great little box, you should defo think about putting it into production, I really feel this will interest A LOT of 2box users for the 3zone snare usage as it basically adds and input (albeit through the editor) to custom sample input.

As for Yamaha pads, I can HIGHLY recommend the Yamaha Pads. Having played both the silicone and the older Rubber ones, I actually think the older rubber ones are the best! They are able to be picked up very cheaply (more on that later) and aren't rare on eBay! The newer Silicone ones are considerably shyer on the output and don't have as clear separation between the zones as the older ones. I am mainly referring to zone 3 (the rim click) The older one was so separated, a lightest tap to the hardest strike would give you the rim click and nothing else. The newer ones, there's a bit of random back and forth. Though playing rim click in the traditional way of butt on the centre and shoulder of the stick over the 3rd zone worked well so long as the butt of the stick was bang centre of the centre zone. I hope I am explaining myself clearly?

As for the feel, sure the silicone feel nice but the rubber ones also did! The strong build is evident on both designs. I did have to do some repairs on the 12" pad, but it was minor, just a reconnect of the ribbon inside. It is a very old pad after all and it was getting seriously played hard by me. But no piezo change or anything, just some minor re connection. 

So in short, the older Yamaha TP120SD, TP120T and TP100T pads are the best with the 2box module!

Making custom 3zone samples from VSTs is a lot of fun too!

Oh, by the way, did I mention I have a TP120SD and a TP100T for sale?

😉
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

tsss27

This is great info thanks! I may stick with the older Yamaha pads then. The newer ones have pretty mixed reviews and the comments about less clear separation are also concerning. How is the rebound on the older pads? Do you feel it is harder to produce buzzes, rolls etc than on the newer design (or mesh for that matter?)

It is pretty strange that this 3rd zone is so hard to get working. You can't trigger it over MIDI either, otherwise I'd just do that. I have no idea why they designed it this way.

Krillo

Quote from: ANGR77 on February 26, 2020, 05:26:53 AM
The only way to get 3 zones using one snare input is through the Yamaha way to do it. Piezo, switch, switch trigger with a 10k resistor difference between the two switch triggers.

Hi Anders!
You mention a 10k resistor between the two switches. I own a Yamaha XP120SD and I have been in contact with 2box regarding the less than stellar zone switching using this pad with the drumit 3, but they have never mentioned any additional mod or the resistor. Could you tell me more about this?

For anyone considering this snare pad: The cross stick triggering is quite poor with the drumit 3. The module often interprets it as something else but cross stick. Also there is often double triggers when playing rimshots.

If you create a 3-zone dsnd and pan the different zones hard left, rigt and center (only use single layers for simplicity) you will notice that more than one zone often triggers simultaneously.



welshsteve

Yeah I know what you mean with the XP120sd. Like I say, hitting the 3rd rim often gets mixed trigger zones. Btw it’s also the same on the pearl mimic pro!

The TP120SD was far superior. It was hotter in signal and didn’t have any mixed triggering of zones. I don’t understand why though, surely the only thing to change is the surface?

As for bounce or rolls, absolutely fine with a TP120SD. I like the rubber surface more than mesh! But we’re all different.

My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

edcito

QuoteBtw it’s also the same on the pearl mimic pro!
This module gets a lot of praise but this is one of the many issues it has, there's not one single individual who says a 3 zone snare works, the manual says it's tricky to set up but it works, even them won't do a demo so in the end everybody just use an extra input for a bt-1 to trigger the cross stick...

welshsteve

Quote from: Krillo on February 26, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
Hi Anders!
You mention a 10k resistor between the two switches.

This is how Yamaha modules (and 2box) differentiate between the two rims zones on a single trs cable. The resistor is in the pad. What Anders did is put this resistor in one of his boxes so that a Bt1 could act as the 3rd zone.

My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

edcito

maybe lustar can chime in, he knows how to do a 3 zone snare from the stock snares, I asked him once but I forgot already...
Doing 3 zone snares from a VST is no issue, personally the best pad I found to work perfectly with the drumit 3 was a roland pd-128s.

welshsteve

#9
But that only gives you 2 zones. To get a cross stick as well as rimshot you’d need an other input and a trigger like bt1.

Whereas on paper using Yamaha (or using the older TP series pads) will give you 3 zones off a single trs cable and if the dsdn sound has one assigned to a 3rd zone.
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

edcito

Quote from: welshsteve on February 26, 2020, 11:02:26 AM
But that only gives you 2 zones. To get a cross stick as well as rimshot you’d need an other input and a trigger like bt1.


No, there's a way to make a 3 zone dsnd from the 2box stock snares to use with a 2 zone pad, it's doable but complicated, you have to fiddle with the velocities map so light hits trigger crossticks and high velocities the rimshot, all with a 2 zone pad like the roland pd's.

Krillo

Quote from: welshsteve on February 26, 2020, 10:47:37 AM
This is how Yamaha modules (and 2box) differentiate between the two rims zones on a single trs cable. The resistor is in the pad. What Anders did is put this resistor in one of his boxes so that a Bt1 could act as the 3rd zone.

Ah, I understand what he means now :) Yes, the Yamaha pad switches the ring connector to groud, but the one for rimshots has a 10k series resistor. This way x-stick is pulled from 5V to 0V and rimshots are pulled down from 5V to 2,5V.


Quote from: welshsteve on February 26, 2020, 10:17:51 AM
Yeah I know what you mean with the XP120sd. Like I say, hitting the 3rd rim often gets mixed trigger zones. Btw it’s also the same on the pearl mimic pro!

The TP120SD was far superior. It was hotter in signal and didn’t have any mixed triggering of zones. I don’t understand why though, surely the only thing to change is the surface?

As for bounce or rolls, absolutely fine with a TP120SD. I like the rubber surface more than mesh! But we’re all different.

My guess is that the difference in performance has to do with the timing of the module. The Yamaha module(s) are much slower (8-11ms), so they have a longer scan-time to determine which zone has been triggered. I have a DTX500 module which detects the zones perfectly, but apart from that, not a very good unit.
So using either TP120SD or XP120SD with a Yamaha module, you may not notice any difference.
The drumit 3 is much faster (3-6ms depending on zone) so that's probably why. But the reason the pads actually differ... I would guess there is some stray capacitance in the XP120SD that is less in the TP120SD, thus giving a faster switching. But that is just my guess.

edcito

Here is the info I got to create a 3 zone snare for a 2 zone pad using dsoundtuner and dsoundtool:

find a snare dsnd with the velocity switch that you like and open it in DSoundTool, click on the rim zone to open the layer view, then click on the layers until you find the velocity at which the sound switches from stick to rim. remember the velocity number (or volume)
- use DSoundTuner to extract all of the dsnd you want to use, keep Restore Pitch checked so that you get all the samples at their "normal" pitch. Unless all the dsnd have the same "max tune", in this case I would just use DSoundTool to extract with File > Split
- open the dsnd you want to use with DSoundTool and open the layer view to count the samples from the highest velocity to the velocity number where it should switch. Then delete the samples you won't use that are lower than this velocity for the rim, and higher for the sidestick samples.
- put all the sidestick and rim samples in a new folder. It may not be necessary to rename the files so that they are all in order since they will be sorted by volume when creating the new dsnd.
- create the new dsnd with DSoundTool with Dsnd > Generate, Snare, select "many wav samples" and "keep volumes as they are"

ANGR77

Ahh...a 2box thread which involves!!! :-)

Quote from: welshsteve on February 26, 2020, 06:04:33 AM
That's a great little box, you should defo think about putting it into production, I really feel this will interest A LOT of 2box users for the 3zone snare usage as it basically adds and input (albeit through the editor) to custom sample input.

We will see about this - I have a working box...but there is always some work to get it to work good. In my example I am using three piezos (RT-10S have head/rim) and the BT-1 which also have piezo….I am converting the rim and xsticks piezos to switch signals...and the whole thing emulates a Yamaha 3 zone pad.

Best Regards

Anders / www.zourman.com
Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

tsss27

Excellent, I will go for one of the older Yamaha TP pads then. As stated they do seem to show  up for good prices and don't appear to have all the durability complaints like the newer ones.

Velocity switching may be fine for some, I prefer two separate zones so I can play either one at whatever volume I wish. Most of the samples I have are ones I recorded myself and they have a full range of dynamics so I wouldn't want to reduce that. I only wish the 2Box had even more inputs... :D