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Hi hat calibration

Started by Gav, May 18, 2017, 02:06:09 PM

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nocturnodrummer

I've had that issue.. twice! I can give you some advice on how to avoid it in the future. I cant guarantee that it is a 100% correct solution but it works for me. I've noticed that the hi hat sensor never failed during playing so  I concluded that it goes bad either when I power up the module or shut it down. The solution is simple, never turn on/off the module when the hi hat cable is connected to the cymbal! Turn on the module first, and then connect the cable. And the some when turning it off, first disconnect the cable, then hit the button. The hi hat input has voltage in it, so maybe when powering up the module there can be a situation when the voltage is too high(some kind of uncontrolled peak from the adaptor) and it fries the hall sensor (my guess only, I'm not an electronic engineer).

Coda

Quote from: nocturnodrummer
I've had that issue.. twice! I can give you some advice on how to avoid it in the future. I cant guarantee that it is a 100% correct solution but it works for me. I've noticed that the hi hat sensor never failed during playing so  I concluded that it goes bad either when I power up the module or shut it down. The solution is simple, never turn on/off the module when the hi hat cable is connected to the cymbal! Turn on the module first, and then connect the cable. And the some when turning it off, first disconnect the cable, then hit the button. The hi hat input has voltage in it, so maybe when powering up the module there can be a situation when the voltage is too high(some kind of uncontrolled peak from the adaptor) and it fries the hall sensor (my guess only, I'm not an electronic engineer).

Interesting theory. Should be easy to verify on an oscilloscope whether a spike is going to the hall sensor. I've had one board die for no apparent reason, and I *always* turn the module off/on with the cable plugged in first (I mean why wouldn't you?).
IIRC the inputs to the sensor chip are protected with diodes and resistors but I'd have to take another look at the schematic to be sure.

nocturnodrummer

Well, for the second time 2box send me a different board! With the newer version number printed on it. And they said that it should resolve the issue. So, there was something wrong with the design. But since I make half of my living playing drums, I can't risk not having a working hi hat on the weekend. I'm now checking my emails and now I remember that the updated circuit board has gone bad too! It was, a "mystery" to the 2box staff :) But since I developed my own ritual of plugging the hi hat, everything is in order :) maybe my module has some fault in it?

ANGR77

#18
This is an interesting question. We (Me and dad) did some studies last year on the hall effect sensor (Allegro A1392) and according to all specs the maximum limit of supplied power for the circuit is 3.5V.

However - the power supplied on the hi-hat output is 4.12V. A zenerdiod/resistors won't help this scenario. We can't measure any spikes using oscillioscope when powering up/down on the hi-hat input...but we are 92% convinced that the normal powerstate sometimes overloads the Allegro circuit. We have also seen strange power leaks between the 2box chassi and the hi-hat stand where the hi-hat is connected. So make sure your 2box module is exectronically separated from the rack metal.

Yes, I am glad you asked (Joking..) - the Zourman Conversion Module is designed to handle up to 6 volt's...

Best Regards

Anders Gronlund / www.zourman.com
Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

nocturnodrummer

So there is some truth to what I'm thinking. And how's that separation suppose to look like? Sorry for not quoting but my phone cant quite work it out. Do you use different hall sensor than 2box?

Coda

Quote from: nocturnodrummer on June 06, 2017, 11:39:45 AM
So there is some truth to what I'm thinking. And how's that separation suppose to look like? Sorry for not quoting but my phone cant quite work it out. Do you use different hall sensor than 2box?
I think 2box use the same sensor chip. IIRC, when I was researching designing a new board I only found 2 Allegro devices which could possibly work, and one of them wasn't 100% compatible. Most other Hall Effect sensors work differently so are not direct replacements.

ANGR77

#21
Hi!

I might not completely follow this discussion...but just clear any confusion. 2box is using the Allegro A1392 in their hi-hats. This is the only model which is possible to use.

Our findings is assumptions-but we are quite sure the circuit pops because when overriding the specs.

To isolate the 2box module - (this is valid if you have standard 2box pads on rack) check if the stand holding the 2box module is in metal and is fixad with metal screws. If it is attached to the 2box rack...which I assume is in metal...and the hi-hat stand is connected to the rack. Here you have a big nice connection. You could either detach the 2box module or add some extra clutch isolation under the hi-hat magnet to isolate and break this circuit.

Last- the Zourman hi-hat conversion modules don't use any Hall effect sensor or Alllegro circuit at all.
We have adapted so a Roland based hi-hat pedal using its resistor and then we convert the signal to fit 2box hi-hat system. Just plug-play - no fiddling with magnets.

Best Regards

Anders / www.zourman.com

Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

Jman

#22
With hundreds of them out there in use, I don't have the problem with boards/sensors burning out with my Stealth 2Box HH Stand Conversion kits.   J
I could tell you where to stick that piezo! :D ;)
http://stealthdrums.com/

Deve Loper

#23
Hi. The hall sensor has indeed 3.5V max recommended supply voltage, abs max 8V.
The hihat input has when unloaded 4.1V, with hihat 3.85V. (It's a current sensing input.)
But the hihat board has a series diode, so the chip supply never gets over 3.5V.
Cheers, Deve.

nocturnodrummer

Hi Dave, thank you for your input on the subject. Maybe you have an idea on what can possibly cause the problems with the hall sensor? Mine broke two times, never during playing. I may be able to find the newer version of the board in my house(I'm currently under a house renovation and everything is either hidden or misplaced somewhere) and take a picture to compare what changes 2box has decided to make.

Deve Loper

Hi. I left 2box beg 2012, so I don't know what (if) any changes were made to the hihat board.
The hihat input on the module at least should not affect the hihat board at power up / down.
Also, it is short circuit safe.
Best, Deve.

Coda

Well, we appreciate that you still hang around here and help out occasionally!  :D

ANGR77

You are probably right, Deve - but I am pretty sure we that we measured on the power input on the Allegro circuit itself - when we realized that the power was over the specs. But, I am currently doing some other research...so I will check again. :-)

It is still strange why the circuit "pops" under certain scenarios. Somebody claimed that they "popped" on stage environments where it could be a lot of earth leaks, unstable power, magnetic fields etc.

Also the fact that Jmans solution never popped...which I believe is an electronic isolated solution could speak for the power leak scenario between the 2Box module and the hi-hat.

Somebody said that this magnetic solution is exactly the same solution which was used in DDRUM (in the good old days) - and guess what - it never popped either.

But what do I know? :-)

Best Regards

Anders / www.zourman.com

Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com