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Latency Live!

Started by welshsteve, May 07, 2017, 07:32:16 AM

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welshsteve

I posted something about this before and chatted to someone who'd had a similar issue, but does anyone use the whole kit live (hats, cymbals and drums) and notice latency? Namely on snare or ride (that'w where I notice it myself)
I could never seems to get it to happen to any noticeable effect at home in a quiet environment but live, it's quite a lot. Not to an audience, but as drummers when we feel the stick hitting a pad and the sound in the cans changed by even 5 milliseconds, it sticks out like a jumbo sausage at a Barmitz-vah!
I can only conclude that when there's a lot of ambient noise, most probably in the bass register, the module goes a bit nuts dealing with the constant rumble that must be coming down the piezos. I tend set up next to the bassist, who's go a 6 x 10" cab and even though I am using an electric kit, with NO amplification as I monitor through IEM, he still sets his volume as if he's playing with MOTORHEAD! So with that, the guitarist on the other side of me, follows suit! And that say drummers are the noisy ones!!! It begs the question, "what they hell are they playing to, Samaforo???"
Anyway just thought if anyone else had this also.
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

ANGR77

Hi!

Hard to guess without any more details, like firmware version, do you run the module in kit or unit mode?, do all triggers have the right settings?, what about the threshold on the pads with problems? -46 or lower Etc...have your module been patched with more memory?

Best regards

Anders / www.zourman.com / Roland hi-hat conversion modules for 2box


Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystalbeat, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, PCY-155, MD, 2Box 5 MK1&II & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.14, all ADPaks moved to 2box, Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

welshsteve

Most recent firmware. Pads are all set up optimumly. Threashold is no lower than -30 on all pads, maybe a little less here and there. Like say, it's fine in a quiet environment, not so much when there's a bassist pounding away. Always in kit mode, I've had the kit 5 years so I'm aware of all these things.
No expansion, the same 4gig card from the factory. All mesh pads and 2box cymbals.
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

Coda

There's only two things that I can think of that change when playing live compared to playing at home/in the studio.

1) Electrical noise (which has been discussed)
2) Mains supply quality

I believe that if you can rule out 1, then it has to be 2. Do you play live at the same venue every time?
Also, you are monitoring your drums directly from the module right? (it's not being mixed at front of house and sent back to you?).

welshsteve

Hi and thanks for your replies.
Same power supply live or at home. Which isn't the 2box supply as that broke, but another ac-ac adaptor. I will like to say I had latency live with the offial power supply too.
It's different venues each time we play.
Like might have mention before, I got a second module (Roland td15) and a jobeky ecymbal hihat controller as I figured if I just used it for hats the 2box module will not have any latency. I've only got it live and when using hats and cymbals.
So you don't think its most likely to be loud ambient bass levels being picked up by the piezos in the pads and the processor in the module to struggle with all the data.
You can tell I'm not a computer programmer with jargon like that eh?
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

AndyMo

Hi,

I have experienced the same problem.

The most notable occasion was as I started a track, with a fill between bass drum, floor tom and snare. The rig went bonkers for a few seconds. That was the worst its been. However, the snare latency seems more common (subtle usually but sometimes really worrying).

In my case, I think it might be location of the backline. Most of my gigs are small/medium sized venues and most of the grunt from the backline amps (including mine). My Yamaha powered PA speaker often sits alongside the bassist's rig - and I think it may be as you describe, with lots of noise causing havoc.

I haven't noticed these issues at home. It's only live or at loud rehearsals.

Steve - did you say you don't get issues when using a separate module for your hihat? If so, I might drag along my old Roland module and hihat pad/pedal to my next gig and try that option.

Cheers,
Andy

welshsteve

When I have used the second module in a rehearsal, I didn't notice any of the usual latency on snare or ride cymbals. Presumably because the drumit 5 isnt working so hard. In many ways the Roland Hihats are superior to the 2box, but in others not so much. It's a trade off as far as I am concerned. But over all the latency is the biggest thing which bugs me.
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

AndyMo

Thanks Steve. I tend to carry the old module as a backup, so it would be good to experiment with the two module approach. Do you take outs from both modules, direct to your mixer?

welshsteve

Can do that or take a stereo cable and put it in the line in of the 2 box. You have control of the levels from the mixer section of the drumit 5.
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

edtc

Quote from: welshsteve on May 08, 2017, 04:50:04 PM
Can do that or take a stereo cable and put it in the line in of the 2 box. You have control of the levels from the mixer section of the drumit 5.

Bad idea IMO ... line in adds a small  latency ...  signal has to be digitalized to pass in the 2box mixer , then converted back to analog after the mixer ...

sn47som

#10
Quote from: ANGR77 on May 07, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
Hi!

Hard to guess without any more details, like firmware version, do you run the module in kit or unit mode?, do all triggers have the right settings?, what about the threshold on the pads with problems? -46 or lower Etc...have your module been patched with more memory?

Best regards

Anders / www.zourman.com / Roland hi-hat conversion modules for 2box
Interesting, I run all pads at -48 on low Xtalk and have virtually no latency except for the modules native latency (Ugggh sux... cant do anything about it). Bear in mind this is in my home.

I would suggest taking a look at the samples and their integrity. Not all converted and exported samples seem to be created equal. I believe now this has a lot to do with how much processing and effects were put on the sample. Don't put too much effects on samples you want to export. They dont come out right when using too much saturation, warmth and punch/tube effects combined with a lot of compression. You lose a lot of playability, definition and audio integrity that way. I have some dsnds that play very nice and consistent while others are super inconsistent with playability and have frequent latency issues. I would try different samples/dkits in a live situation and play with your Xtalk setting starting from off working your way up to find the balance of little to no Xtalk with little to no latency. It's a PITA I know.

welshsteve

Whatever it is, live is really the only place I notice it. Which is a shame because the kit sounds so good through the pa, I get drummers with TD30s and 50s saying how good and natural it sounds. If the latency is only a trigger side of the module issue, if I used it solely as a sound module and triggered from an another module, say like and alesis Midi I/O (or similar) would I be opening up another can of worms?
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!

Coda

Well if you were going to do that, I think you'd be better of selling the 2box, buying a megadrum and a cheap laptop, and using a VST.

Yes I considered it.

edtc

Quote from: welshsteve on May 15, 2017, 02:52:59 PM
  if I used it solely as a sound module and triggered from an another module, say like and alesis Midi I/O (or similar) would I be opening up another can of worms?

TriggerI/O adds a lot of latency when used with a midi cable ... It s much better with used with a usb connection

Maybe you could try to do one gig without the 2box hihat and use a regular hihat .. The idea is that the continuous controller update of the hihat may overflow the midi ...  Really not sure about that , but worth the try ...


welshsteve

Yeah, that's kinda the next step. A real hihat or another through the Roland module I bought just for this purpose. If it wasn't for the latency in a live setting, I'd have absolutely no qualms with the set up at all.
Well I'd like 3 zones on snare but that's a different issue.
My Hovercraft is full of Eels!