Author Topic: Headphone/Main Output Independence.  (Read 4166 times)

tassuperkart

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Headphone/Main Output Independence.
« on: May 09, 2015, 05:56:30 AM »
I use my 2Box primarily for live work. I have a couple of gripes.

Id like to see independent HEADPHONE/MAIN output volume knobs or the ability to quickly mute the main outputs without having to scroll thru fiddly screens.

Id also like to able to do a separate volume/eq mix into the headphones independent of the main output mix. Im sure this would be at software level.

Yes I know the volume groups can be altered individually but when playing live there is usually too little time to make adjustments to the mix without the annoying tapping and so-on making out to the main mix.

Incessant tapping of drums, guitar picks, keyboard tinkles and related faffing and bullshitting about between songs sounds very unprofessional and is irritating for an audience.
Its fine if you have a switched on FOH guy who will mute the drums inbetween songs and can give you signals as to what he wants up and down in the mix but in my case, we do many shows mixed from the stage as a rule and 2 channels only for the drums and no FOH guy. Everything needs to be right to start with or adjustments done on the fly from the stage.

The reasons for independent monitor/main mixing and EQ are to allow for varying sounds between FOH and whatever monitor setup is used.
I build all my kits using high quality studio cans but these mixes are more or less unplayable live with my stage monitor setup and are more or less useless with a simple 2 channel (left/right) FOH mix.

My stage monitor is a bi-amped 10"x 2 way Yamaha PA bin with a 12" sub underneath with only bass and treble EQ from a tiny 2 channel mixer.
The only way i can arrive at a useable FOH 2 channel mix results in a booming kick and snare and the rest too quiet in the stage monitor. Especially rack toms and hi-hats.
If the stage sound is crap, it stays crap.

The ability to do an independant mix and EQ in the monitor would be invaluable in a live situation meaning I can make useful adjustments to the monitor mix without disturbing the FOH mix.

E
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 11:36:15 AM by tassuperkart »

edtc

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2015, 06:24:34 PM »
it sounds like your problem could be solved by buying a cheap mixer with 3 or 4 band eq ...  you can use it between the module and the monitor  ...

Then you ll have a separate instantly available volume and eq ...

IMO it s the simplest way


fishmonkey

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2015, 03:53:08 AM »
these new interfaces look handy for the situation you are talking about:

http://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/k-mix/

edtc

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2015, 11:07:39 AM »
these new interfaces look handy for the situation you are talking about:

http://www..com/products/k-mix/

It looks like a smart product ... like keithmcmillen other products ... 

tassuperkart

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2015, 01:38:07 PM »
Oh I realize I can do all this externally with small external mixers and so-on. Its the same as the request for more sophisticated FX processing. Its easy to say just use a mixer and add some FX processors and voilah!

But that makes the whole show messier and more complicated with carrying around additional equipment not to mention plenty of additional money after buying all the crap you need, signal leads, power leads etc, setting up the stuff, running and taping leads down everywhere, remembering settings, things that can go wrong and to get wrong. Generate additional noise/rf interference and blah. Not to mention packup!! 600 clams for that funky little controller......... Not exactly cost effective.

In fact its what i do right now. A small 2 channel in 2 x stereo out mixer, plugpack power supply, USB/firewire leads, new leads from module to mixer and from mixer to FOH desk, power boards........GAH!
Its messy, time-consuming, expensive and just places additional failure points into the system.

My old Roland module had several channel faders on the front of the module which appears nice at first except that the designers neglected to disassociate the monitor output from the main output, so at the end of the day, the exercise is functionally useless for live gigging if a quick monitor mix adjustment is necessary.
It all has to be done at software level which is fiddly and time consuming. Only thing quick and easy is making a mistake with 10-20 seconds or so between songs....

Hence my wishlist of individual master volume control on MAIN and MONITOR channels.
Or even more simply to dissascociate the MAIN output volumes from the volume control knob and let it control monitor volume only.
That way i can control easily  and quickly my monitor levels via the volume knob and the main output channel levels can be set via software in soundcheck and no additional expensive crap to buy and setup.

E
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 02:00:28 PM by tassuperkart »

edtc

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2015, 02:59:38 PM »
Its easy to say just use a mixer and add some FX processors and voilah!



Hence my wishlist of individual master volume control on MAIN and MONITOR channels.
Or even more simply to dissascociate the MAIN output volumes from the volume control knob and let it control monitor volume only.
That way i can control easily  and quickly my monitor levels via the volume knob and the main output channel levels can be set via software in soundcheck and no additional expensive crap to buy and setup.

E

It s also easy to ask for things written in the manual in a forum ... ;) 

The manual is cool !!!  it s FREE , you dont have to PLUG it ... but yes , reading and understanding it is time-consuming ....

So .... yes , you can have the Knob  controling just the phones volume  . Select  "SUB!" on out 1-2  for your FOH out , and "MIX "(without !) for the phones out .

The EQ can be assigned on the bus you want ... so if you chose MIX , you ll have EQ just for the monitors ...


Jman

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2015, 03:14:40 PM »
I think you will be able to accomplish what you want as edtc mentioned. There are almost infinite combinations you can set up as far as what mixes you want..... Including setting a fixed volume mix of your Main Outputs that is not controlled by your volume know. The 1.2X manual starting with page 55 is where you need to look. The nice thing about the new 1.30 OS is you can save all your settings once you get the perfect setup and give it a name for example "Live" play. My suggestion would be to save a copy of your current Drumit.dkit to your computer. Rename it to DrumitLive.dkit. Copy that back to you module. While your module is powered up press and hold More along with Kit .... Then choose that new Drumit.Live kit. Make your output/mix assignments that work for you live. Save it. From then on you can simply press and hold More and Kit and choose your default settings or your new DrumitLive settings.

from the manual:

This determines which signal is going to the main output jacks (OUT1·2). You can choose from the following options:
Mix The entire sum signal of the internal mixer (see also page 45) (all instruments, metronome, FX, line in and the song player).
Mix! Like "Mix", only with a fixed volume. The output volume no longer depends on the LEVEL control. The control can thus be used exclusively for the headphone output.
Sub In this setting, the sub-mix signal is used (see SUB).
Sub! Like "Sub", only with a fixed volume - independent of the LEVEL control.
1+2! The Signals of BUS 1 and BUS 2 are outputted with a fixed volume on the jacks OUT1 and OUT2, which then serve as additional individual outputs (Direct out).
I could tell you where to stick that piezo! :D ;)
http://stealthdrums.com/

tassuperkart

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2015, 12:44:49 PM »
Ahhh!!
Well I have to say Id missed that. I have tried reading that manual several times but in my defence, you'd near have to be a rocket scientist to make head or tail out of it.
I have read that passage above several times so far with slowly increasing understanding but that will only serve part of the purpose.

However, it still doesnt give me a quick option to mute main outputs to do some tweaking onstage unless I access fiddly and time consuming little screens so i stand by my suggestion of individual Main and Monitor output volumes along with ability to EQ both output types (Main and Monitor) independently.

E



edtc

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2015, 10:55:05 PM »
a small mixer , 2 cables  ...

tassuperkart

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 01:26:56 AM »
a small mixer , 2 cables  ...

To get back to the original post, Im putting forward an elegant and easy solution to what is now an unnecessarily fiddly, expensive and time-consuming task with a view to implementation in a NEW module.
Its a request for a new feature, not a need for a workaround.

I clearly realise there are plenty of messy, expensive and time consuming workarounds.
I already have a small 2 channel mixer and additional cables and power supplies to unpack/uncoil, run out, tape down, connect up, tune up and make work with all the spare time I have alongside transporting, lugging in, setting up, wiring up and tuning my bands PA.... Time is in short supply on gig nights for me.

See, not everybody exclusively uses their module in a studio or a practice room and just gigs with an accoustic kit. That would be easy.
Some of us use an E-kit for all practice, rehearsals and gigs.

Mine is mecilessly transported, lugged in, set up, wired up, tuned up, played and then pulled down and packed up EVERY time its played so something as simple as being able to independently control main out and monitor levels directly via a knob on the box is imperative when working in a live situation where time is in short supply between songs.
Sure I can scroll thru legions of tiny screens and find some level adjustent, mute my outputs, do what i have to do to the drumkit by scrolling thru hald a dozen other screens, make adjustments, then hope Im happy, scroll back to the mixer screen, re-enable the master outs... all the while I have an impatient group of bandmates and an expectant crowd standing there waiting for a 1234 count in.....

NOTHING in the world sounds less professional that waiting interminably for a new song to start at a live show with the sound of drums tapping, guitars tuning up and keys twanging....etc

Do you see my point?? I dont need workarounds for the existing module. Its a suggestion for a new module to make live playing easier.

E

Jman

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Re: headphone/Main Output Indepence.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 03:31:19 AM »
As far as current options, I don't know if you are already on OS 1.30, but one of the new features with that OS version is you can change Kit Banks while the module is on. So when you get some time this is what I would suggest. Update to OS 1.30 if you haven't yet. Then copy your current Drumit.dkit file to your computer. Rename that to something like DrumitMUTE.dkit   Then copy that back to your module. After you start your module Press and hold More and Kit, then choose that new DrumitMUTE.dkit. Set that up so your Main 1/2 ouputs are Muted.

When you are done you can stay on the Kit bank you are on or simply press Kit and More again and switch back to your original Kit bank.

Anyway, you get the idea. I understand you don't want to mess around for several minutes while the band is waiting, etc ..... But I think after you have some more time with the module you will find your way around it and find some good ways to shortcut what you want to achieve. With the new OS you can have lots of different Kit banks that you can access like I mentioned above. So once you have more time with the module you can set up some banks that are already set for what you want. New features in the future will be nice .... but I'm just trying to suggest ways to achieve what you want from the current features for now .... Hope it helps, J
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 05:35:25 AM by Jman »
I could tell you where to stick that piezo! :D ;)
http://stealthdrums.com/

tassuperkart

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Re: headphone/Main Output Independence.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 11:35:08 AM »
Cheers Jerry
Yer, I have already setup a small mixer for this very purpose which does the job in a roundabout way. But as i have said, its complicated, messy and time consuming. Like almost all bandaid solutions!!!!!
Something i just dont have in my show is time!!!
With the old Roland TD-10, just a twist of the master output volume knob and away i go. With the 2Box... well, its all been written above!!!!

Id really like to see independent mixing and EQ'ing between main and monitor outputs. Making a change in the main mix often makes an undesireable change in the monitor mix and vice-versa! Ive made that mistake quite a few times!!!

Of course these are simply wishlist suggestions for the future!

E