Hi hat dynamics

[InTheBox]

Hi.

Having played the 2box since November, I'm still a bit unhappy with how the hi hat sounds. Not sure I'm doing everything right.

My main problem is that the hi hat seems to lack dynamics. It seems to be the same volume whether I strike it soft or hard, closed or open.

I find that this makes playing noticeable accents hard. A hi hat "bark" should be exactly that, a "woof" that sticks out. Right now it sounds more like a whimper (miaow??) .

Any settings I'm overlooking, or is the root cause in the dsdn dynamics itself?

PS: I'm playing stock sounds and don't find myself technical enough to make my own dsndns for the moment.

[jeff42]

I have the same problem. finally after getting everything on the 2box to my liking I still am underwhelmed with the hihat performance. Even with Jman's mod box thingie. I have only done 3 live gigs with it so far but the hi hat play-ability is lacking compared to my roland. The sounds are great though. Not sure what my next move is.

[yzf125]

Lets hope this new firmware update that everyone is testing will address this known problem with the Hi Hats, This is why I sold mine, I would buy another in a second if they can fix this to play at least as good as my Roland...

[ANGR77]

@Jeff42...when you refer to Jmans box and live gigs...did you use it with your Roland VH-Xx...and the feeling and experience was still bad?

Angr77

[jeff42]

Yes live I use Jmans Box & a roland VH-12. It is better than the 2box Hihat pad but not as good as my VH-12 is with my TD-12 module and that is whats bothering me. Cross talk issues (singing into a microphone triggered it a few times on saturday), dynamics and sensitivity. I havent had time to mess with it since saturday but maybe tonight.

[hwasser]

The hi hat is indeed very problematic. No matter how I set it up it is unplayable:
- zone 4 should be able to be played further towards the edge,  and sometimes zone 8 gets triggered even when I play at the cup. Zone 4 can't be triggered correctly.
- because the hi hat tilts a bit when you strike the edge, some notes can suddenly become a little open even when it should be completely closed.
- the opening and closing of the hi hat doesn't feel right either (I am talking about how it is choking and ending notes)

[Jman]

Yes live I use Jmans Box & a roland VH-12. It is better than the 2box Hihat pad but not as good as my VH-12 is with my TD-12 module and that is whats bothering me. Cross talk issues (singing into a microphone triggered it a few times on saturday), dynamics and sensitivity. I havent had time to mess with it since saturday but maybe tonight.

Regardless of what brand module you use you can't expect to use a different pad from the original manufacturer's pad and leave the trigger parameters alone without adjusting and fine tuning for the pad you are now using. In the module you have Threshold, Gain, Curve, Crosstalk settings for the HH pad. There is also a foot splash sensitivity setting that can be dialed in so your foot splashes react the way you like. I also build my box with a knob on the side that can be dialed down if necessary for a Hi Hat pad that puts out a super Hot signal, only really necessary if you still can't get your hardest hits to fall below max velocity after setting gain to 0 in the module.
Getting crosstalk from a vocal microphone is a sure sign the threshold and gain need to be adjusted for your HH cymbal. The crosstalk setting is usually not needed if those parameters are setup right.

[Jman]

I wanted to post in this thread because the Stealth HH conversion kit is significantly different than the 2Box Hi Hat. With the original Hi Hat the controller with hall sensor is mounted in a moving/vibrating Ecymbal that is being hit with sticks.  My system is mounted stationary below the HH pedal where it isn't affected by the vibrations and it does not move. The magnet moves with the pedal, but that is always rigid and not being jostled or jarred. So the movement is smooth! There is no accidental jumping to wrong Open/Closed transitions. I am convinced how well my system works, first because I use it myself, but also because I get constant feedback confirming that.

Almost any Ecymbal can be used with my conversion kit. But with my box/conversion the Ecymbal that the person uses needs to have the parameters adjusted for best triggering.

Typical top of the line edrum modules will detect 4 or 5 different open to closed transitions. With many of the stock 2Box Hi Hat sound dsnds there are 6 or more transitions for both bow and edge plus foot chick and foot splash. So when all is working right you can get Hi Hat response that is better than with the other brands that are double the price. And I know because I owned the others.  And for those that get into building their own dsnds it can be even better.

There is a 2Box Hi Hat test dsnd that simply has numbers 0 to 10 that are read out as you hit the HH cymbal and move the pedal up or down. That is a good dsnd to test with because you can listen to how your transitions sound off and you will hear every number if you go through it moving slowly. Testing with that will confirm the HH position controller is working correctly.

I do think it takes a little while to utilize the increased number of transitions and very large amount of samples that are used with the 2Box Hi Hat. One thing I remember adjusting to is the fact that I can play my Hi Hat with a large gap between the cymbal over an inch. I was used to having 1/2" to 3/4" gap with my previous edrum modules/systems and the fewer number of transitions and distance of travel made it a little strange to adapt to the 2Box system with more samples/transitions and more travel distance. But after adjusting to that it becomes an advantage, as it should.

[edcito]

So Jman, that means we can use your conversion box even with the 2box hihat? I like it and dont want to get something else.

[jeff42]

thanks for the advice Jman. Its a work in progress with me and the 2box. With the help of you and a few others here and on the FB groups its getting there.  Its not as easy to work with but its getting there. I thought I had the hihat set right until last week's gig.

Everything else I feel I have pretty spot on and I really like what I'm hearing. I am sure I will be able to eventually get the hi-hat settled. because others have. If it wasnt for your hihat mod though I think I may have given up. The 2box one failed on my 1st gig. the sensor in it died... uggh. It has been replaced by the great people at 2box (they were very nice) but I havent even tried it at a live gig again. Jman's mod on the other hand works and is WAY better than the stock hihat (2box should hire you!)... I guess I Just have to get it to work perfectly to my liking. Which will take some more time. I dont know, I get it "right" in my studio then when I play at a gig its just not "right." But I'll figure it out.

Also I will answer edcito's question. (i feel proud I know this... LOL) NO do not use the 2box hihat with jman's mod.

[Jman]

So Jman, that means we can use your conversion box even with the 2box hihat? I like it and dont want to get something else.

No, as Jeff says above it cannot be used with the original stock 2Box HH cymbal. The original 2Box Hi Hat already has a control panel installed so with 2 control boards the results would be unusable.

One of the most important tips when using the original 2Box Hi Hat is to be sure and use a good quality Hi Hat stand that moves smoothly.

J

[Drum2]

No, it cannot be used with the original stock 2Box HH cymbal. The original 2Box Hi Hat already has a control panel installed so with 2 control boards the results would be unusable.

What if we pass the board in the 2Box Hihat and connect the wires from the sensor and the contact directly to the connector? 

[Jman]

What if we pass the board in the 2Box Hihat and connect the wires from the sensor and the contact directly to the connector? 

The HH cymbal piezo and switch wires are connected to the circuit board along with a jack. So it would be a somewhat involved mod. You would need to remove the circuit board, and install a TRS jack instead.
If someone wanted to use a 2Box cymbal along with my control box it seems like just picking up a 2Box 14" crash/ride cymbal and use that for the HH cymbal might be an easier solution for most.

When I first delved into building a control box for using a different cymbal with the 2Box module it was so I could use my own Stealth HH cymbal with the 2Box module and for others using my Stealth HH cymbal conversion kit. It was never meant as a replacement for the stock 2Box Hi Hat. But since many people already own electronic drum kits and are changing over to the 2Box module this becomes an easy way to use the existing HH cymbal from their previous E Kit along with the 2Box module.

My first DIY control box was built by robbing the circuit board out of a 2box HH cymbal here:
http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php/topic,722.0.html

[jeff42]

I also didnt know about the 2Box Hi Hat test dsnd. I have to check that out too

[Jman]

I also didnt know about the 2Box Hi Hat test dsnd. I have to check that out too

It was posted on the forum years ago. I keep a copy of it on my storage site though here:
https://files.secureserver.net/0swsixZfGbs2xD
That can be dragged and dropped into the Cymbal, Hi Hat folder of the module or drag to your card in card reader with the computer (for those that are using an external card mod), Then simply choose that instead of a normal HH sound for testing.

Here is a quick guide for adjusting the Threshold and Gain for the HH cymbal:

With the module turned on press the Hi Hat button or hit the Hi Hat. Press Unit, page down.
Hi Hat should be the pad type.
Adjust the Gain so your hardest hits just peak the velocity meter. If the hardest hits do not trigger the
top velocity raise Gain. If you are triggering the highest velocity too easily lower the gain till you get that
just right. I suggest making sure "ONLY" your very hardest hits trigger max velocity. Next let the drumstick lightly fall on the HH cymbal and bounce. It should trigger the first hit and
most of the subsequent bounce hits. If it seems to trigger the light hits fine try raising the Threshold a
bit till the lightest hits are no longer detected. Then adjust it lower again till it is just right. The key is to
get the Threshold to where your light hits are detected, but the lower the threshold the easier it is to
receive crosstalk, etc. One tip here: The Threshold ranges between Positive and Negative numbers.
Occasionally a person will not realize -48 is the lowest threshold, getting that reversed in their mind. Just
remember turning the knob to the right raises the value, turning to the left lowers the value. Lowering
threshold means more sensitive to light hits, raising it means less sensitive to light hits or external crosstalk. The crosstalk setting can be used if necessary to help eliminate crosstalk.