I posted something about this before and chatted to someone who'd had a similar issue, but does anyone use the whole kit live (hats, cymbals and drums) and notice latency? Namely on snare or ride (that'w where I notice it myself)
I could never seems to get it to happen to any noticeable effect at home in a quiet environment but live, it's quite a lot. Not to an audience, but as drummers when we feel the stick hitting a pad and the sound in the cans changed by even 5 milliseconds, it sticks out like a jumbo sausage at a Barmitz-vah!
I can only conclude that when there's a lot of ambient noise, most probably in the bass register, the module goes a bit nuts dealing with the constant rumble that must be coming down the piezos. I tend set up next to the bassist, who's go a 6 x 10" cab and even though I am using an electric kit, with NO amplification as I monitor through IEM, he still sets his volume as if he's playing with MOTORHEAD! So with that, the guitarist on the other side of me, follows suit! And that say drummers are the noisy ones!!! It begs the question, "what they hell are they playing to, Samaforo???"
Anyway just thought if anyone else had this also.
Hi!
Hard to guess without any more details, like firmware version, do you run the module in kit or unit mode?, do all triggers have the right settings?, what about the threshold on the pads with problems? -46 or lower Etc...have your module been patched with more memory?
Best regards
Anders / www.zourman.com / Roland hi-hat conversion modules for 2box
Most recent firmware. Pads are all set up optimumly. Threashold is no lower than -30 on all pads, maybe a little less here and there. Like say, it's fine in a quiet environment, not so much when there's a bassist pounding away. Always in kit mode, I've had the kit 5 years so I'm aware of all these things.
No expansion, the same 4gig card from the factory. All mesh pads and 2box cymbals.
There's only two things that I can think of that change when playing live compared to playing at home/in the studio.
1) Electrical noise (which has been discussed)
2) Mains supply quality
I believe that if you can rule out 1, then it has to be 2. Do you play live at the same venue every time?
Also, you are monitoring your drums directly from the module right? (it's not being mixed at front of house and sent back to you?).
Hi and thanks for your replies.
Same power supply live or at home. Which isn't the 2box supply as that broke, but another ac-ac adaptor. I will like to say I had latency live with the offial power supply too.
It's different venues each time we play.
Like might have mention before, I got a second module (Roland td15) and a jobeky ecymbal hihat controller as I figured if I just used it for hats the 2box module will not have any latency. I've only got it live and when using hats and cymbals.
So you don't think its most likely to be loud ambient bass levels being picked up by the piezos in the pads and the processor in the module to struggle with all the data.
You can tell I'm not a computer programmer with jargon like that eh?
Hi,
I have experienced the same problem.
The most notable occasion was as I started a track, with a fill between bass drum, floor tom and snare. The rig went bonkers for a few seconds. That was the worst its been. However, the snare latency seems more common (subtle usually but sometimes really worrying).
In my case, I think it might be location of the backline. Most of my gigs are small/medium sized venues and most of the grunt from the backline amps (including mine). My Yamaha powered PA speaker often sits alongside the bassist's rig - and I think it may be as you describe, with lots of noise causing havoc.
I haven't noticed these issues at home. It's only live or at loud rehearsals.
Steve - did you say you don't get issues when using a separate module for your hihat? If so, I might drag along my old Roland module and hihat pad/pedal to my next gig and try that option.
Cheers,
Andy
When I have used the second module in a rehearsal, I didn't notice any of the usual latency on snare or ride cymbals. Presumably because the drumit 5 isnt working so hard. In many ways the Roland Hihats are superior to the 2box, but in others not so much. It's a trade off as far as I am concerned. But over all the latency is the biggest thing which bugs me.
Thanks Steve. I tend to carry the old module as a backup, so it would be good to experiment with the two module approach. Do you take outs from both modules, direct to your mixer?
Can do that or take a stereo cable and put it in the line in of the 2 box. You have control of the levels from the mixer section of the drumit 5.
Quote from: welshsteve on May 08, 2017, 04:50:04 PM
Can do that or take a stereo cable and put it in the line in of the 2 box. You have control of the levels from the mixer section of the drumit 5.
Bad idea IMO ... line in adds a small latency ... signal has to be digitalized to pass in the 2box mixer , then converted back to analog after the mixer ...
Quote from: ANGR77 on May 07, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
Hi!
Hard to guess without any more details, like firmware version, do you run the module in kit or unit mode?, do all triggers have the right settings?, what about the threshold on the pads with problems? -46 or lower Etc...have your module been patched with more memory?
Best regards
Anders / www.zourman.com / Roland hi-hat conversion modules for 2box
Interesting, I run all pads at -48 on low Xtalk and have virtually no latency except for the modules native latency (Ugggh sux... cant do anything about it). Bear in mind this is in my home.
I would suggest taking a look at the samples and their integrity. Not all converted and exported samples seem to be created equal. I believe now this has a lot to do with how much processing and effects were put on the sample. Don't put too much effects on samples you want to export. They dont come out right when using too much saturation, warmth and punch/tube effects combined with a lot of compression. You lose a lot of playability, definition and audio integrity that way. I have some dsnds that play very nice and consistent while others are super inconsistent with playability and have frequent latency issues. I would try different samples/dkits in a live situation and play with your Xtalk setting starting from off working your way up to find the balance of little to no Xtalk with little to no latency. It's a PITA I know.
Whatever it is, live is really the only place I notice it. Which is a shame because the kit sounds so good through the pa, I get drummers with TD30s and 50s saying how good and natural it sounds. If the latency is only a trigger side of the module issue, if I used it solely as a sound module and triggered from an another module, say like and alesis Midi I/O (or similar) would I be opening up another can of worms?
Well if you were going to do that, I think you'd be better of selling the 2box, buying a megadrum and a cheap laptop, and using a VST.
Yes I considered it.
Quote from: welshsteve on May 15, 2017, 02:52:59 PM
if I used it solely as a sound module and triggered from an another module, say like and alesis Midi I/O (or similar) would I be opening up another can of worms?
TriggerI/O adds a lot of latency when used with a midi cable ... It s much better with used with a usb connection
Maybe you could try to do one gig without the 2box hihat and use a regular hihat .. The idea is that the continuous controller update of the hihat may overflow the midi ... Really not sure about that , but worth the try ...
Yeah, that's kinda the next step. A real hihat or another through the Roland module I bought just for this purpose. If it wasn't for the latency in a live setting, I'd have absolutely no qualms with the set up at all.
Well I'd like 3 zones on snare but that's a different issue.
I agree Steve. If I could solve the hihat issues (going to try real hihat at a gig tomorrow) and latency - I would be much happier. Like you, I get other drummers (acoustic and electronic) comment on the sound. I played Roland for 10 years prior to the move to 2Box.
If I could also get a snare that behaves more like a real snare (e.g., like the TD50), that would seal it for me. I would not be looking at other options.
Cheers,
Andy
PS I tried a TD50 at the weekend and playability was superb.
Hi Steve,
At a gig last night, I used acoustic hi hats. Although not particularly scientific, I did not notice any significant latency issues. My sizeable Yamaha powered PA speaker was right next to the kit and right next to my speaker was the bass players amp.
I was surprised how well it worked. The gig was in a small/medium sized bar and the hi hat and drums blended well.
Playability with real hi hat was of course much improved on the rubber pads.
I am wondering about trying a ride (and maybe crash) too. Something darker and not ear-spitting volume-wise might work well. This isn't related to latency - just playability (for example, last night, one of the o-rings slipped off part of the cymbal edge which rendered the ride pretty useless until I could refit the o-ring in the break).
Cheers,
Andy
Next is the snare. Then toms. Finally kick. Et voila... full acoustic kit :o ;D
No - I'm resisting that route : )
The flexibility, range of sounds (I used some new samples last night) and, not least for many gigs I play, volume control is key for me.
I'm considering other cymbal options - including some of the Zildjian low volume range with Jman triggers for example.
I might stick with real hi hats though, unless other options get much closer to the real thing.
I understand. I've just ordered the Zildjian Gen16 (cheapest kit) so I can get playable hats...
It'll be great to hear how you get on with the Gen16s. The hi hats seem to play very well and come across well in demos, etc.
Yeah I'm more worried about (re)learning how to play real hats now. It's gonna be an uphill battle for sure.
I bet you will be surprised how quickly you adapt. I played an ekit for about 10 years and then joined an acoustic combo where I use a really small set up, incl real hats. It was great and made me realise how expressive real hats are compared with the e-hats I played. That said, I tried a TD50 at the weekend and the hats were incredible.
I was sure you gonna enjoy the mix real hihat/drumit5 ...
I use real hats since day one , and for a year a L80 hh + ride ...
Cant stand E-hats , even on the best models ... i m sure it will take long time until a company releases something half as expressive as the real thing .. and hihat is 90% of a beat ...
Do the Gen16 hats offer an 808 and/or 909 type hihat or are they just natural cymbal sounds?
Thanks.
Tony G
UPDATE!
Well, I played tonight and the bassist wasn't on the gig, so I unmuted bass tracks that I programmed (as I expected some gigs would be without a bassist sometimes) And the kit played find, no notacable latency issues at all. So I conclude it's BASS frequencies, most specifically bassists that are mentally loud that don't need to be because the kit doesn't have its own backline and stage monitoring is down to a single 12" wedge monitor.
Although this still sucks because it should be fine to play around high backline amplifcation, it seems I have whittled it down.
I have a three of gigs next weekend without a bassist again, so I'll see over the three gig I have no latency at all and if on Monday I report that I have not, I'll can say that bass guitar amplification is the main influencing factor.
Good to know. And the permanent solution is so simple: fire the bassist :D
Quote from: StudioG4 on May 20, 2017, 08:18:56 PM
Do the Gen16 hats offer an 808 and/or 909 type hihat or are they just natural cymbal sounds?
They are not triggers, they are reduced-volume real cymbals with tiny mics. You still get a sound processing module to alter the sounds but to what extent is possible, I am not sure.
Steve - your experience chimes with mine. The times I have noticed it, I have been sitting right next to a sizeable bass amp and drum monitor. At the gig last week, my speaker was raised a little and not cranked up quite so much as the bassist only had one speaker cab (rather than his stack of two cabs). The band volume on stage and the lower frequencies were reduced - and I didn't have any latency issues. I hope the rest of your gigs went well!
I played at an outside gig Saturday night and experienced some serious latency - it was a though I had a pretty delayed echo on the snare. It was intermittent but seemed to get worse as the evening wore on. Eventually the snare all but stopped working. I switched the cable to my BT1 and used that to get me through the last two tracks. I'm not sure if this is a live latency issue or perhaps a failing trigger. I used a brand new cable on the snare and ride. One variable is my large monitor was slightly behind me and fairly close to the snare.
Anyway, I will look into it further. I bought some Triggit triggers - used one on a tom with a failed internal trigger and it seemed to work well. I will try one on the snare channel.
It's such a pain. I have some great sounds but triggering live seems to be an issue.
Quote from: AndyMo on June 19, 2017, 10:48:17 AM
I played at an outside gig Saturday night and experienced some serious latency - it was a though I had a pretty delayed echo on the snare. It was intermittent but seemed to get worse as the evening wore on. Eventually the snare all but stopped working. I switched the cable to my BT1 and used that to get me through the last two tracks. I'm not sure if this is a live latency issue or perhaps a failing trigger. I used a brand new cable on the snare and ride. One variable is my large monitor was slightly behind me and fairly close to the snare.
Anyway, I will look into it further. I bought some Triggit triggers - used one on a tom with a failed internal trigger and it seemed to work well. I will try one on the snare channel.
It's such a pain. I have some great sounds but triggering live seems to be an issue.
It's a shame you're having such problems, for me these things really destroy my mood and confidence (which is never that high to begin with).
I've rebuilt my snare maybe a dozen times with DIY triggers, because I wasn't ever 100% satisfied. Lately I fitted a Wronka that I bought from someone off here, and while I imagine it might be more consistent, it's not perfect with regards to rim triggering. The only advice I can give you, is whatever trigger you use, make sure any soldered connections are also glued (I use a good quality hot-glue for this purpose). If you glue the connections on the piezo, use sparingly or sensitivity will suffer. Liberally hot-glue all solder connections to jacks, and even loose wires should be glued at regular intervals to the inside shell to stop vibrations in the wiring causing false triggers.
Good luck.
So the last few weeks I've used the TD15 and a jobeky real feel hats and the 2box module and it's great. I mean, probably not as good as real set of hihats/Gen16 but it's cured the latency when I'm forced play next to the bassist with an 8x10" cab.
I was frustrated at first with the dynamics of the Td15 for a while but since I've reduced the gain it's opened up their dynamics greatly. Still not fantastic sounding hats but in the thick of the band music, only my ever so critical ear picks it up. So for the larger picture, I'm happy about it.
When the drumit3 comes out I might exchange the td15 for that and still use the jobeky hats. But that's a bit off yet.
Actually thats the biggest complaint people have against the Gen16 - that the cymbals sound lacking, and that they can sound trashy (my own experiment shows this is due to improperly placed pickups). In the phones this is true, but in the mix they sound perfect, because when playing normal cymbals one of the first things the FOH sound guy does is cut all the lows off the cymbals. Result - Gen16 sound :P
Yes Coda - it was a great gig but become frustrating and worrying as my snare started repeating and failing before more or less failing all together. Interestingly, I was using real hihat cymbals - my 2box hihat is unreliable and lacks feel for me. I'm very interested to try the Gen16s as your experience with them seems positive.
I'm hoping my issues were a failing trigger rather than a module issue. I will try a Triggit (I bought a set recently and am using one on my low tom with good results). if that works, I may well opt for that approach on all drums and carry a spare.
Placement of my monitor may have been a factor but I'l check, once I get the kit set up again at home. I also had a problem with one of the cymbals, I was getting a choked sound when it was struck firmly. I expect it was the o-ring or prong issue - but I will double check that too, once the kit is set up again.
It's good to hear Steve has resolve the issues with his kit - and good to hear your Gen16 hihat is working well.
Re cymbal choke. In addition to checking the rubber ring, check all
the prongs too. If one of them is even slightly touching the bottom plate that will make the sound choke.
Ive not experienced any latency live. Ive used module with mk11 kit, roland pads and triggit triggers on acoustic drums. I tend to use the headphone output with a split cable one going to my drumamp monitor and the other to Pa so it can be boosted if needed. Only issue ive had was with an Alesis 400 drum amp that kept cutting out when played loud. Ive gone back to old Roland monitor
Thanks for the updates.
I'll double check the cymbal. I am optimistic it will be an easy fix (o-ring and/or prong alignment).
Regarding latency, etc., it has been noticeable on my snare. The snare all but failed at the gig - so perhaps it was linked with the internal trigger's slow demise.
I will try a Triggit on the snare and see how I get on.
Thanks!
Andy
I trigger a 12" tama piccolo with a trig it and a silent stroke (with a fair bit of dampening underneath as it needs it) It works like a charm!
I use a maxed-out kit with 32gb expansion and have also noticed latency, but mine was definitely not due to volume (we all use IEMs). Mine seems to be caused by the hihat- if I'm playing busy and doing fills over 8th notes on the hh pedal, it starts to get a little laggy. If I chill on the hihat and don't play so much it straightens out. It's a bit frustrating but workable.
Lately I've been using the Gen16s (5 cymbals, pickups on both hh cymbals, 2 DCP processors). It's definitely a tradeoff since the Gen16s have their own limitations and a thin sound, but the crashes are awesome. The splash is decent (I had to mess with the preset a lot), China is pretty good (I use O-rings too and bottom in the sensor screw to cut down the harshness a bit), and the hihat is thin but extremely realistic. However, I just can't stand the ride. I've messed with it endlessly and even bought the L80 version for a darker sound- but the low "gonginess" of the ride is not present. It sounds like you're riding a thin crash. So I use a trigger cymbal for the ride and Gen16s everywhere else.
Advice: mixer EQ can be your friend. Boost some mids (somewhere in the 300-500hz range) to get a little more warmth, and cut a bunch of really high stuff (there are some prominent overtones around 6.8k). Also the DCPs are kinda noisy. I use a gate with a very low threshold to eliminate this.
Jer
When you use Gen16 with the kit, I am assuming you don't get latency? Since I have been using a Roland module just for hihats, I haven't had any, even with a noisy bassist. I have come to a conclusion that it is a processor limitation of the module, exemplified when there's low bass frequencies near the kit.
Thanks Darthsleader for the opinions. I have just the 13" HH (I experimented with two pickups and it's definitely the way forward, I will order another pickup soon :P), and the 18" C/R which I am quite happy with as a ride (I don't know what you're using, you didnt say) but it definitely could be better - theres very little 'deep ping' if at all, and the bell is lacking too. I'm wondering if I should go back to my triggered ride and use the gen16 ride as a crash...
Steve, I have only had the gen16 for a couple weeks now and have not noticed any latency at all, practice or live, but to be honest I didn't suffer that much from it. What I did notice some time ago though is when I built a few new kits without the tuneup option, it did increase the tendency for latency issues. I think when you make tuneup-able samples, the frequency they are natively played back at decreases (which is why you are warned about lower sound quality), which in turn makes less workload for the module, which is more noticeable when you have multiple zone, multiple layer dsounds, such as in hihats.
Tunable samples, you mean when you're building your own DSDNs? The option on the right of the app which you can get it's unable range? So tunable dsdn = little/no latency, no tuning = latency issues (given the conditions... lots of cymbals, notes being player, foot hats, noisy bassists, low frequencies at high volumes etc) ?
Other way around. If you want to tune up the sample to a higher pitch you need to specifically create it like that at export time, OR you need to use dsound tuner to adjust the sample.
Regular samples are 44KHz, but I suspect you say "I want to be able to tune this up to +6 pitch" then some jiggery-pokery happens and the sample is created differently and at a lower native frequency (maybe 32KHz?) which is played back faster to get to the higher pitches.
At least that's how I am guessing.
Quote from: Darthsleader on June 25, 2017, 11:12:57 PM
I use a maxed-out kit with 32gb expansion and have also noticed latency, but mine was definitely not due to volume (we all use IEMs). Mine seems to be caused by the hihat- if I'm playing busy and doing fills over 8th notes on the hh pedal, it starts to get a little laggy. If I chill on the hihat and don't play so much it straightens out. It's a bit frustrating but workable.
Lately I've been using the Gen16s (5 cymbals, pickups on both hh cymbals, 2 DCP processors). It's definitely a tradeoff since the Gen16s have their own limitations and a thin sound, but the crashes are awesome. The splash is decent (I had to mess with the preset a lot), China is pretty good (I use O-rings too and bottom in the sensor screw to cut down the harshness a bit), and the hihat is thin but extremely realistic. However, I just can't stand the ride. I've messed with it endlessly and even bought the L80 version for a darker sound- but the low "gonginess" of the ride is not present. It sounds like you're riding a thin crash. So I use a trigger cymbal for the ride and Gen16s everywhere else.
Advice: mixer EQ can be your friend. Boost some mids (somewhere in the 300-500hz range) to get a little more warmth, and cut a bunch of really high stuff (there are some prominent overtones around 6.8k). Also the DCPs are kinda noisy. I use a gate with a very low threshold to eliminate this.
Jer
Interesting to hear about your experience with latency (there is definitely a theme) - and also your positive experience with the Gen16s (bar the ride).
With my latency issues last weekend, I had something similar. If I eased off the snare, the module sorted itself out. Perhaps the failing trigger played havoc with the processor.
I think I may have to try the Gen16 route too. I used acoustic hats last week (the venue was small enough that I didn't need to mic/mix the hats) but had problems with one of the 2box cymbals, which added to the frustration mid-gig.
With your ride, do you attach a trigger (Stealth trigger, for example) to the Gen16 ride?
Thanks,
Andy
Hi guys!
Gen16 questions:
-I never have experienced latency of any kind once I've started using the Gen16s. Cymbals are very long samples to play, and the hihat especially is generating tons of data. It really takes a load off the module to use Gen16s!
-Yes, pickups on top and bottom cymbals is definitely the way to go with the hihat. If set up properly, you can really dial in the foot chick attack with the bottom cymbal volume. Open "rattle" sound is so much fuller too.
-Ride: I have the 20" Gen ride and the 20" L80. The L80 is better but neither work satisfactorily for me. I love a clangy ringing bell and a nice gongy dark hum. Gens just can't do those things.
-Ride trigger: I'm using an old Hart Dynamics model that's rather odd- it's a black plastic plate that's the shape of about a sixth of an 18" ride. (As in, if you cut an 18" pizza into six slices, this is one slice. Haha). There's a rubber pad on top. Then, it has a realistically sized rubber bell as well. Each has its own piezo. Takes some fussing in the module, but it is an excellent trigger overall! No choke and no edge, but I don't use those on the ride much anyway. I've ordered an awesome 20" real 3-zone trigger cymbal from Field, which should be here in July. I will report.
Jer