Over the weekend I made 3 3-zone cymbals for my new 2box module. I put the piezos in the bell and made edge switches and their working very well! My question is about the hihat. Does anyone know if it just requires 1 piezo and no edge switch and is it the bell also? Thanks!
The HiHat is basically the same as the crash cymbals from what I can see, it does have an edge switch... without that you'll get no edge triggering on the hats, something I reckon you'll probably want to have.
Hi,
yes, the original 2Box hihat is basically a "normal" 2-zone cymbal with a piezo for bow and switch for edge. It just has the additional board for the level-detection integrated.
Regards, Manfred
By the way, in this thread i posted the schematic of the original hihat:
http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php/topic,897.0.html
So the cymbal itself has 4 wires connected to the board. 2 for piezo and 2 for the edge switch. On the circuit board there is the magnetic hall sensor for the level detection. The last post shows the correct schematic diagram.
Regards, Manfred
Thanks Rob and Manfred, I guess I just need to know if the piezo is mounted in the bell. Over the weekend I tried a couple of things. I put a small piezo in the bell and it didn't seem to work to well and then I tried a larger one, I think 27mm and mounted on the bow close to the bell. That seems to work better but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks!
Quote from: RockStarGate on February 14, 2012, 11:55:57 PM
Thanks Rob and Manfred, I guess I just need to know if the piezo is mounted in the bell. Over the weekend I tried a couple of things. I put a small piezo in the bell and it didn't seem to work to well and then I tried a larger one, I think 27mm and mounted on the bow close to the bell. That seems to work better but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks!
The HH unlike the other cymbals does not have the Velocity switching thing going on ... with the other cymbals a bell mounted piezo works well because high velocity on the piezo triggers bell sounds, so naturally the hits right on the bell with the piezo in the bell are going to trigger bell sounds more easily. And playing on the bow, further away from the piezo will play more consistently for lower velocity bow play .... Even though the 2Box HH cymbal has the piezo in the bell, it is not really important IMO that it be be placed there .... most standard edrum brand cymbals work well for the 2Box Hi Hat with Manfred's box.
For my DIY ride , i use a 10mm piezo located under the bell ,and that works great ...
Thanks guys for the info. I guess I'm fine with my build then, just have to tweek settings to get it right. :rock:
Quote from: RockStarGate on February 13, 2012, 10:07:28 PM
Over the weekend I made 3 3-zone cymbals for my new 2box module. I put the piezos in the bell and made edge switches and their working very well!
what kind of system did you use for the edge switch ?
Quote from: edtc on February 15, 2012, 03:39:33 PM
what kind of system did you use for the edge switch ?
I bought a sheet of .010 tin and cut out the edge switches with a scissors. I attached them with a thin piece of 3M double sided tape on the back back edge. I was soldering the ground to the cymbal but was having poor results with that so I ended up attaching the ground wire to the nut and bolt that holds the project box on. Looks something like this...(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5324/20120215181125.jpg)
Quote from: RockStarGate on February 16, 2012, 12:25:33 AM
I bought a sheet of .010 tin and cut out the edge switches with a scissors. I attached them with a thin piece of 3M double sided tape on the back back edge. I was soldering the ground to the cymbal but was having poor results with that so I ended up attaching the ground wire to the nut and bolt that holds the project box on. Looks something like this...(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5324/20120215181125.jpg)
Hi
seeing the picture , i understand why you spoke about weak triggering .... IMO the DST foam you use to stick the piezo absorbs too much signal ....
I told you i have good results with a small piezo , but i use thin DST ... that s maybe why
Some could tell that it can be fixed by simply increasing the gain , but this will also increase false triggering issues, especially on loud stages , as the piezo could pick up more ambient sounds !
so the hoter the signal is , the safer the triggering will be ...
By the way , thanks for the pic :) .... do your switch work for edge zone , or just as a choke ?
Quote from: edtc on February 16, 2012, 12:57:00 AM
Hi
seeing the picture , i understand why you spoke about weak triggering .... IMO the DST foam you use to stick the piezo absorbs too much signal ....
I told you i have good results with a small piezo , but i use thin DST ... that s maybe why
Some could tell that it can be fixed by simply increasing the gain , but this will also increase false triggering issues, especially on loud stages , as the piezo could pick up more ambient sounds !
so the hoter the signal is , the safer the triggering will be ...
By the way , thanks for the pic :) .... do your switch work for edge zone , or just as a choke ?
When I was building them I was searching posts for ideas and saw that Rob219 used 2 layers of double sided tape and said he had good results so that's what I tried. I'm going to try just 1 layer and see how that goes.
I'm getting zones 1,4,8 and 9 so I guess the switch is working.
I did use 2 layers, but here is where I noticed the flaw in your install... the tape you used covers the complete base of your piezo.... that is where the issue lies!
You need to make sure that the taped area is no bigger than the area of crystal on the piezo.
So, if the piezo has a total diameter of 27mm, and the crystal part is 22mm... well that is what size you make the tape disk to mount it. There must be a free area around the outside to vibrate, that is where you get the sensitivity from.
Try that and see how it goes.
Quote from: ROB219 on February 21, 2012, 01:15:00 AM
I did use 2 layers, but here is where I noticed the flaw in your install... the tape you used covers the complete base of your piezo.... that is where the issue lies!
You need to make sure that the taped area is no bigger than the area of crystal on the piezo.
So, if the piezo has a total diameter of 27mm, and the crystal part is 22mm... well that is what size you make the tape disk to mount it. There must be a free area around the outside to vibrate, that is where you get the sensitivity from.
Try that and see how it goes.
Thanks Rob.....I took apart a CY-8 I had lying around to check the size of the piezo and noticed that Rolands were like that but didn't pay it much attention to it. Goint to re-mount my piezos tomorrow. I guess I should have realized that when I built my drums using the Quartz cones, his tape only covered the ceramic also.
being new to the 2Box and choke switches...how exactly is the switch wired? I see one wire from the tin to inside the box. What is it attached to?..and then you mention the ground....what is it wired to besides the bolt on the box?
Thanks. :)
Daniel
Quote from: fulrmr on December 01, 2012, 04:48:20 AM
being new to the 2Box and choke switches...how exactly is the switch wired? I see one wire from the tin to inside the box. What is it attached to?..and then you mention the ground....what is it wired to besides the bolt on the box?
Thanks. :)
Daniel
Hi Daniel.....since we're both members in the secret society of drummers that were featured in DigitalDrummer i'll let you in on the secret choke setup.....this is between you and me....DON'T TELL ANYONE! ;D
The Piezo is wired to the Tip and Sleeve and the switch is wired to the Ring and a second wire goes from the Sleeve to the metal of the cymbal, I attach that to the bolt that holds the project box on.
I also sanded the cymbal under the switch to make sure it had good contact with the switch. Works PERFECT!
Quote from: RockStarGate on December 01, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Hi Daniel.....since we're both members in the secret society of drummers that were featured in DigitalDrummer i'll let you in on the secret choke setup.....this is between you and me....DON'T TELL ANYONE! ;D
The Piezo is wired to the Tip and Sleeve and the switch is wired to the Ring and a second wire goes from the Sleeve to the metal of the cymbal, I attach that to the bolt that holds the project box on.
I also sanded the cymbal under the switch to make sure it had good contact with the switch. Works PERFECT!
hehehehehe.........thanks. I've never built a chokable cymbal. I think I may give it a shot though.
If you will indulge a "Secret Society" brother ;) I have another question. If my cymbal were of a plastic nature...where would I attach the wire that goes to the bolt?
if the cymbal is in plastic it cant work this way ...!
you ll have to put another conductive surface between the cymbal and the metal sensor , and connect it to the ground ...
Quote from: fulrmr on December 02, 2012, 12:58:05 AM
hehehehehe.........thanks. I've never built a chokable cymbal. I think I may give it a shot though.
If you will indulge a "Secret Society" brother ;) I have another question. If my cymbal were of a plastic nature...where would I attach the wire that goes to the bolt?
You would have to make a 2-piece choke (2 metal strips) one strip goes to ring and the other to sleeve. When you touch them together the cymbal will choke. The choke also controls the 3rd cymbal zone, when you hit the cymbal edge the flex makes the choke strips make contact briefly and you get a edge sound.
I don't know if that will work as good on a plastic cymbal?
Quote from: RockStarGate on December 02, 2012, 01:23:44 AM
You would have to make a 2-piece choke (2 metal strips) one strip goes to ring and the other to sleeve. When you touch them together the cymbal will choke. The choke also controls the 3rd cymbal zone, when you hit the cymbal edge the flex makes the choke strips make contact briefly and you get a edge sound.
I don't know if that will work as good on a plastic cymbal?
Sounds simple enough......now to decide a cymbal material. :-\
thanks. :)
Quote from: RockStarGate on December 01, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
The Piezo is wired to the Tip and Sleeve and the switch is wired to the Ring and a second wire goes from the Sleeve to the metal of the cymbal, I attach that to the bolt that holds the project box on.
I also sanded the cymbal under the switch to make sure it had good contact with the switch. Works PERFECT!
OK...Tip and sleeve....which goes to brass and which goes to ceramic?
I got the switch part to work....nice edge sound and choke.....but no bell or bow. Using crash 1 input and Gen16 13" cymbal.
hmm...now my choke just completely stopped working....this sucks..........
EDIT:
Well...as it turns out...my very first attempt was a complete success....sort of....I have some stereo jacks that have and extra terminal for another connection that seems to go near....(and I say near because it doesn't touch it) the tip contact. Apparently I was connected to that instead of the tip terminal. Problem solved. I get superb bell, bow and edge separation..and in chokes spectacularly.
SUCCESS!!!! YIPPEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!
My very first 3z choking cymbal....I feel very accomplished now.
However...this really does not explain why it wouldn't work with the barrel jack I used after the first seemingly failed. Hmmmmm.............I bet it's wired wrong too. ;)
Yep....I wired and rewired this thing until I went bleary eyed...it's no wonder it was wired wrong. ::)
Quote from: fulrmr on July 06, 2013, 02:37:09 AM
OK...Tip and sleeve....which goes to brass and which goes to ceramic?
usualy , tip is ceramic and sleeve is brass
Quote from: edtc on July 07, 2013, 11:58:18 AM
usualy , tip is ceramic and sleeve is brass
Thanks! Yep...that's how I have it...and it works now. ;)...
...Now for some refinement of my initial design....and trying to figure out how to actually post pics here. Is there an attachment feature here other than the "Insert Image" button in the tool bar? I don't see one.
I just bought a bunch of Gen16 cymbals to convert and am now selling my Sabian A2E's.
You can find them in the classified section....CHEAP!!!!
Quote from: RockStarGate on November 16, 2013, 06:31:49 PM
I just bought a bunch of Gen16 cymbals to convert and am now selling my Sabian A2E's.
You can find them in the classified section....CHEAP!!!!
Did this work out for you? I was thinking of doing the same but with L80's, which are much cheaper.
There's no reason adding triggers to L80s wouldn't work. I had a look on Zildjians website the other day, and I found just 3 different sets of L80s, all of which contain hats. I'm wondering if there a possibility to buy single cymbals, not in a pack? (I would buy a pack, plus some more crashes/splashes/chinas, if they exist).
Quote from: RockStarGate on November 16, 2013, 06:31:49 PM
I just bought a bunch of Gen16 cymbals to convert and am now selling my Sabian A2E's.
You can find them in the classified section....CHEAP!!!!
Were you able to get this to work (3-zone w/choke and hi hats)? I am going to try with the Low Volume cymbals, but last time I tried, getting the choke to be accurate was difficult. Also, not sure how to best do HiHats.
Thanks
Hi guys, Im using a piezo on bow (ring) and a smaller piezo on the bell (tip), both shares sleeve.
I tried a lot of combinations 35/27/10 mm piezo, but the problem is when hit the bell sound I get the bow/edge sound and viceversa. I also played with different threshold and gain config with no luck. Any Ideas? Im thinking that probably a KRC may work?
Quote from: nicog on April 19, 2016, 07:07:31 PM
Hi guys, Im using a piezo on bow (ring) and a smaller piezo on the bell (tip), both shares sleeve.
I tried a lot of combinations 35/27/10 mm piezo, but the problem is when hit the bell sound I get the bow/edge sound and viceversa. I also played with different threshold and gain config with no luck. Any Ideas? Im thinking that probably a KRC may work?
2 box cymbals inputs are designed for a piezo for bow+bell and a switch for the edge +choke ...
The piezo has to be located in the bell because bell detection relies on velocity . So with just one piezo you ll have 2 zones .
Quote from: edtc on April 20, 2016, 12:04:48 AM
2 box cymbals inputs are designed for a piezo for bow+bell and a switch for the edge +choke ...
The piezo has to be located in the bell because bell detection relies on velocity . So with just one piezo you ll have 2 zones .
Hi edtc, thanks for your reply.. probably this is off topic but I have diy visulite like cymbals so edge choke doesnt seems to be an option (isnt it?)
I wonder if something like this would work:
http://edrum.for.free.fr/static/pictures/KeithRPiezoRimDetector.jpg
maybe ... it s worth the try
I just build the KRC circuit with two piezos and it works like a charm! I have bell, bow and edge with a great zone separation!
Super, good to know.
For those who use real cymbals instead of E-cymbals and have 3 inputs left , this could be a way to add more PIEZO/PIEZO dual zone pads to the module ....
I've been thinking about trying the KRC on my crashes. I use real cymbals, with a single piezo in the bell. This works well enough on 2box (especially on the ride, because 1 piezo will give 2 useful zones) but I couldn't do it on my previous Roland setup. Which reminds me, I still have to fix my hi-hat (with Jman's edge sensor setup) so I can sell my VH11 kit. Once my exams are over, I will have time to do everything. 3 more weeks...
For the record, my firsts tries didnt work as expected, I had to use different resistors depending on the size of the cymbal and distance/size of the piezos. I end up using large variable resistors and adjusting till I get the right separation.
Also notice that, the bow zone can be activated with either piezos, it will choose the hottest signal and if it is hot enough the module will fire bell or edge.. this makes the bow incredible sensitive, and a hard hit on the bow could be bell or edge.. so adjusting the aux resistor, you can set bell with higher values or edge with lower values.
Great info. If you have time, could you post your cymbal and piezo size(s), and the approximate resistances of the vr's?
Sure, I tried on a 15" 4mm acrylic, with 3mm gum pad on top.
Both piezos are 35mm glued to the acrylic, no DST.
Aux Piezo (edge) resistor is 1M variable (original was 100K)
KRC Internal resistor is 2M variable (original was 1M)
(http://edrum.for.free.fr/static/pictures/KeithRPiezoRimDetector.jpg)
from: http://www.megadrum.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=603 (http://www.megadrum.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=603)
enjoy!
Will be interesting to see how well they work on real cymbals. I almost built acrylics in the beginning, but decided that I wanted them to look real. Real cymbals definitely resonate (that's their purpose lol) and it's not easy to dampen them so you don't get double triggers. The ride (being so big) was the biggest problem for me.
I did find that a bead of silicon only around the edge of the cymbal worked really great, but it didn't stay attached, and the other stuff I tried (the polymer type) you definitely can't get off afterwards (if anyone knows how, tell me :-\) but it doesn't dampen well.
clear soft plastic sheets sticked with DST will dampen them to death and you ll keep the color.... :)
That's what I used in the end, but they still resonate enough to create the odd double trigger occasionally.
another solution is to use 2 thin cymbals with rubber inside of the sandwitch ...
I did one 14 " DIY 3zone ride for my 2BOX module in the past .
Made with a quick-beat bottom and a broken istambul thin crash . I left some space without rubber at the edge to have an edge switch ... and a 12 mm piezo in the bell ...
Just be carefull to use a plastic washer that includes the therad , so both cymbals are not in contact ...
never had noticable double triggering ...
Hi Folks, Forgive me if I'm interrupting your thread.
I'm new to 2box and am just loving this thing. Anyway, This piezo/piezo to piezo/switch conversion interests me that I see on this thread.
Would this work for a diy 2box hat? Seems to me that a piezo transistor controlled switch would be much better than a physical psi sensitive one. Yes?
I currently have a Pintech dual piezo/switch cymbal pad for my 2box hat with the Jman mod. It works but I think it could be better. Any drawbacks to making one of these for the hat? Love to hear everyones suggestions.
Regards, Z.