Author Topic: Could anybody explain how 2 box cymbals are built ? first step to DIY cymbals..  (Read 7614 times)

edtc

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hello
Could anybody explain how  2 box cymbals are built ?  how many piezos ? wiring ? piezzo(s) position on the pad ... how choke works...

this could be nice for DIY projects , or just a better undrestanding of the module behaviour..

thanx !
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 08:34:51 PM by edtc »

Slagverket

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Re: Could anybody explain how 2 box cymbals are built ?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 09:30:31 AM »
Hi,

I got this from the Vdrum forum posted by Deve (I suppose it's the same Deve loper as here ;-) ). I hope it helps.

http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64712&page=9

"About the cymbal compatibilty:

Our cymbal uses 1 piezo and 1 switch.
The original idea with zone detection by wave form analysis didn't work because of inconsistent cymbal signals.

Now the 3 zones are detected as follows:
- switch closed and any strength piezo signal means edge hit,
- switch open and upto medium hard piezo signal, bow hit,
- switch open and hard piezo signal, cup (bell) hit.

The reason being that the piezo sits under the bell and therefore gives a very strong signal right there. Even when you hit the bow quite hard, it will not come up to that level, so that's why the trig sensitivity should be low otherwise even bow hits might be detected as bell. The hard bell signal is of course reduced to give a trig signal comparable to the bow.
However, weak hits on the cup will give rather hi bow triggers.

Roland doesn't work like that. I think they have 2 piezos and 1 switch.
The 2 TRS connectors are called bow/edge and bow/bell.
To get 3 zones and choke on a roland system you have to use both.
For DrumIt either of the two must be used.
Just by chance one of them might behave sort of similar to our cymbal.

Deve."
When in doubt... roll !

edtc

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Re: Could anybody explain how 2 box cymbals are built ?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 02:50:53 PM »
thanx Slagverket :)

does anybody have pictures or can draw a diagram ?

what kind of switch for the edge sound ?

fishmonkey

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Re: Could anybody explain how 2 box cymbals are built ?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 12:03:32 AM »
the whole cymbal is essentially a big switch.

the body of the cymbal is a rigid metal plate. on top of this is mounted another metal plate, with flexible tangs around the whole edge. when you squeeze the edge of the cymbal (choke) or hit the edge with a stick, some of the tangs bend down and touch the lower plate, completing the circuit.

edtc

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Re: Could anybody explain how 2 box cymbals are built ?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 12:40:00 AM »
what a srange design...!

i guess it would be hard to have something reliable with DIY .

edtc

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Beeing stucked at home last days because of a bad back can have some good sides ... 

Thanks to all your answears and some research on the web , I tried to convert some old cymbals i had .

I took a broken thin istambul 14" crash ...

   first try with just sticking a piezo close to the bell with some gaffa tape , as i just had one big old and used 35mm one , i was not able to stick it directly underneath  the bell  as it s supposed to be ( later on , i gonna order different sizes of piezo to try to glue it directly below the bell ...) I plugged this piezzo  to TIP/SLEEVE , it worked with bow and bell...

After that , i tried to connect a footswitch to RING/SLEEVE of cymbal 1 to see what was happening , and was able to choke the sound....:)

Then i remember what fishmonkey told here about metal plates ...

    I took my old 14""zildjan quick beat " botom hat , that one have no bell but a flat shape , like some flat rides have . I made a "sandwich" with the hi hat bottom , a 12 " round peace of 2 mm thick felt ( those you use between cymbals to protect them on some cymbal boxes  to insulate them from each other electrically and also damp the sound...) and the thin 14" crash on top .....
   I used a regular cymbal holder to maintain the "sandwich" together and fasten the screw quite tight....
   Then I  wired TRS "sleeve" to one cymbal and TRS "ring" to the other ....

   I plugged this to Cymbal1 , and FUCK YEAH !!! it worked !!!    bow/bell and edge worked fine , and also choke !!!

When trying on Cymbal 2 , bow/bell and edge worked fine , but choke didn t ... but i m not sure it works on 2BOX cymbals too ... if anybody could tell me as i dont own any 2BOX hardware ......
 edit : finally the choke worked on the ride ....


   I also tried to plug a piezo close to one edge of a old wooden triangular roland PD20 pad ... pluged the roland pad to TIP/SLEEVE and the extra piezzo  to RING/SLEEVE ... I wanted to use this  as a ride cymbal where i could use BOW/BELL/EDGE sound....
... and it worked too !!!!    Hitting strong in the middle gave a bell sound , more on the side(opposite to the extra piezo) a bow sound , and close to the extra piezo , it triggered zone 8 with a crash sound .... 
GREAT!!! but i asked myself if it could damage the module , as RING/SLEEVE is supposed to be a switch and not a piezo transducer ...
So maybe , dont try this before some answears....
MANFRED , could you please help me , i m a lousy electronitian , as i m just able to solder a plug by myself .... could this dammage the brain ( not mine... the drumit one...)

Cant wait to recieve new piezo to experiment , as i seriously damaged  the only one i had for those trials ....
If anybody have some advices for me to buy good piezo of different sizes over the web ....

« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:25:21 AM by edtc »

edtc

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:26:02 AM by edtc »

nonoduweb

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Hi

good job, don't forget to sleep... ;)

Connecting a pad to a cymbal input do not seem to cause a problem. In the old time of the O.S 0.36, when cymbals used a detection by wave analisis, we could even make (bad) positional sensing with a pad.

Do you use real cymbals? What is the interest to connect them on the module?  ???

edtc

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thanx nono ... i m an "oiseau de nuit" :)

Yes i use real cymbals for this . the felt in between damps their sustain  so they dont make a regular cymbal sound .
... i dont know if its better or not as i never had opportunity to try some 2BOX cymbals ...i just have these  and i wanted to make a try .
 on my kit i also use an acoustic hihat without trigger
... i just did this by curiosity also  because this way i can play  later at nights ...  And playing a 3 zone ride is much more fun than a single sound on a pad...



 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 03:45:54 PM by edtc »

Slap the drummer

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 :)
Impressive stuff!

Looking at the video this seems to work better than the 2box cymbal in giving
bell and bow sounds....  in that I see you getting a bell sound without having to
beat the cr@p out of it!!

edtc

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Looking at the video this seems to work better than the 2box cymbal in giving
bell and bow sounds....  in that I see you getting a bell sound without having to
beat the cr@p out of it!!

I dont know if its better or not , never tried a 2box cymbal , there are none in shops close to my place and i just own the module. I d love to try , if someone has a kit close to Nancy France ...
 ... maybe the metallic cymbal gives a louder and sharper attack signal than a rubber coated one ... But it s also much louder "acoustically"  ...

« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 04:26:13 PM by edtc »

Manfred

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   I also tried to plug a piezo close to one edge of a old wooden triangular roland PD20 pad ... pluged the roland pad to TIP/SLEEVE and the extra piezzo  to RING/SLEEVE ... I wanted to use this  as a ride cymbal where i could use BOW/BELL/EDGE sound....
... and it worked too !!!!    Hitting strong in the middle gave a bell sound , more on the side(opposite to the extra piezo) a bow sound , and close to the extra piezo , it triggered zone 8 with a crash sound .... 
GREAT!!! but i asked myself if it could damage the module , as RING/SLEEVE is supposed to be a switch and not a piezo transducer ...
So maybe , dont try this before some answears....
MANFRED , could you please help me , i m a lousy electronitian , as i m just able to solder a plug by myself .... could this dammage the brain ( not mine... the drumit one...)


Well, i don't know what kind of input circuitry the 2Box module has but you can find on page 7/8 of the manual:

Quote from: 2Box Manual

Please note that any pad can be connected to any trigger input jack.
The function on the ring contact of the pad might not work as
expected, but no damage will be done.


Regards, Manfred

edtc

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Thanx a lot Manfred ...