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ddrum 4SE .mp3 files

Started by ericvanderwielen, October 08, 2010, 10:44:12 AM

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lite

#30
I think you have no idea of what I am talking about when I mention clavia's particular so called "drum head vibration algorithm". I am not talking about some software in general. I won't write it again, I've just copied my reply from the other thread. see below.

How can "two sound processing units" (the way you name it) avoid the machine gun effect when the same sample is played again and again during a roll? Where is the difference in sound between the "two units"?


answer from another thread:

I mean the ddrum3 sounds in general, not especially single shot sounds. I assume you mean the same Clavia ddrum3 CD as there was no other:

There are definitely parameters you loose if you convert the sounds to wav.

You have to distinguish between two different ways of sound manipulation in the ddrum3:

a) user adjustable: all the parameters found in the menu (filter, param EQ, damp, click, attack, pitch, bend, gain, xfade, etc.)

b) factory settings: random sample play, position phase (phasing effect controlled by position), random start, and – most important:DVA!

you can check the Simmons sounds from the ddrum3 CD. They have filter parameters causing them to sound very different depending on velocity (not just volume). Most of them use the dynamic EQ and dynamic pitch bend. One Simmons Tom from the ROM bank for example changes pitch entirely when hitting harder.

These parameters are stored in the ddrum3 sounds (kind of hidden as you can't access them outside the ddrum3). You loose these features if you convert them into wav. The 2box can't read ddrum3 sound parameters. And even if the 2box could do it, it does not have filters at all. Just straight sample playback. So you just get the static sample if you transfer it into the 2box.

Beside those parameters (a), there are parameters which are really hidden, described under b). I don't know exactly to which of the multisample sets on the CD the b) type stuff has been applied to. If you want a prove just listen to the Nord Lead Percussion sound no 15. it's a multisample with random sample playback. Which you will loose as well if you convert to wave.

Clavia introduced a thing called ,,drum head vibration algorithm" with the ddrum2. Of course this has been found in the ddrum3 as well. This algorithm changes the relation between the overtones if you play fast repeating strokes. This is the algorithm eliminating the machine gun effect! And yes, you even have a hidden parameter ,,DVA" in your ddrum3! I think it was 0 to 6. With the ddrum4 the version two of the so called ,,drum head vibration algorithm" has been announced.

You see there is a lot more to discover than just calling different velocity samples! Otherwise it would be easy to make a good and realistic sounding drum module if just some multisamples would do the trick. They don't.

The 2box has this velocity layer variation thing in order to avoid the same sample played back repetitive to get rid of the machine gun effect. And a lot more layered samples of course. But it works different from the ddrums and that's why you won't get the same results by just converting the ddrum sounds into wav and transfering them into the 2box.

Mesursur

#31
No i have no idea  :). Thanks for the reply. Just read the ddrumAT  manual (page 7) about the gun effect and the two sound processing units. The simmons example you've mentioned, it is al done with the g-sense and f-sense parameter on the ddrum3(filter button). this can be done with all samples. I have done it with my samples. No hidden parameters(i think). I know the things you mention. Thanks

And dont be offended please.

http://www.clavia.se/ddrum/Files/     for the quick reference

P.S. are you one of the programmers of ddrum and 2box? DVA? (Drumhead Vibration Algorithm)?

lite

Quote from: Mesursur on November 09, 2010, 10:39:24 PM
Just read the ddrumAT  manual (page 7) about the gun effect and the two sound processing units.

Yes, page 7 states the drum head vibration algorithm. As the AT is much older it was probably the way to change a sound during playback as computing power was limited. However, two sound "players" itself won't kill the machine gun effect as long as you don't control them by a smart algorithm to change the sound as desired (-> DVA).

Quote from: Mesursur on November 09, 2010, 10:39:24 PM
The simmons example you've mentioned, it is al done with the g-sense and f-sense parameter on the ddrum3(filter button). this can be done with all samples. I have done it with my samples. No hidden parameters(i think).

The Simmons sounds were an example of the user adjustable parameters/filters (not hidden/available in the ddrum3). But The ddrum3 filters are dynamic ones driven by velocity (in this example). The 2box doesn't have filters. It won't work. You just get the straight sample by transfering it into the 2box.

The hidden stuff is DVA,random,posphase,etc - depending on which dd3 sounds are affected.

Quote from: Mesursur on November 09, 2010, 10:39:24 PM
And dont be offended please.

never  :)

Mesursur

Ok, good, but one note, are the parameters not just stored in the sample/ kit presets? isn't that the logical explanation of the parameters. How do you know al this stuff? and last :), now my band buddies have to hear more boring facts about ddrum. They will kill me.

lite

If I dump single sounds into the ddrum3 the related filter adjustments are transferred as well. I think if you just transfer an individual sample it is without anything.

I am eager to try the hidden stuff (DVA,...). random sample, random start point and posphase work with my own samples. But I didn't notice any difference when dialing in DVA with my own samples :-(

Well, your band buddies share the same fate with my band buddies  ;D ::)

Mesursur

#35
ok you can also download the complete ddrum4 cd from clavias own website(why didnt they just deleted this stuff?)

http://www.clavia.se/ddrum/Files/  (dont think they know)

the tool to convert the mid to wave is 7 posts back, at the beginning of the endless discussion about some ddrum things  ;)

nonoduweb

#36
Hem...If this "hidden stuff" (to avoid machine gun effect) is activated when the ddrum module receives midi messages, this will be sufficient to build a 2box sound...

lite

#37
You mean the other way round transfering 2box sounds into the ddrum3? You have to set this "hidden stuff" manually in the ddrum3. There is a certain button combination to be pressed in order to get access. Only the Clavia stock sounds have those parameters already set and they are dialed in already if you dump them into the ddrum3 (you have to usethe clavia software. MIDI dump only appropiate for raw samples). The other stuff is regular filter stuff in the normal ddrum3 menu.

nonoduweb

Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

When the ddrum brain receives a midi note, does it play the corresponding sound randomly? Are these algorithms activated during midi reception to avoid machine gun effect?

Mesursur

@lite , Do you know the combination?  :rock:

Hey but the normal samples (without the hidden stuff) also sound great.  So there is no need to use the hidden stuff in the sample in order to get a great sound. Thats what I ment. Thats the same if the samples are converted to wave. Then its just a sample and can be used in the 2box (if it sounds good) Am i right. (this was my last item about this, so dont worry:))

Bill P

Deve,

Great job with the ddrum4wav tool.

I have managed to figure out some of the ddrum4 sound file format and parameters by trial and error – modify a parameter value, load the modified file, and test the changes.  However, the trial and error method is very time consuming.  So far I have been able to:

• Change a sample type/name (to differentiate a modified file from the original)
• Modify the relative volume of each multi-sample
• Change the velocity zone assignment of multi-samples
• Remove multi-samples from a file
• Add samples from one CDD4 file to another CDD4 file (must be in compressed format)
• Layer multi-samples by velocity (crossfade)

One thing I have not been able to do is create a multi-sample file from wav files loaded into ddrum4 as a MIDI sample dump.  It appears that the compression is different for MIDI sample dump files and the ddrum4 firmware does not support multiple samples for this format.

Can you or anyone else provide documentation for the ddrum4 (CDD4) sound file format and compression algorithm?

Thanks,
Bill

Deve Loper

Hi.
The software for making the ddrum4 sounds was running on a 68k Mac from way back. The compression algorithm is nasty. So sorry, no software to make ddrum4 sounds today. The ddrum4wav program I carved out of the ddrum4tool program, so just decoding.
The MIDI sample dump stuff is single layer only with 9 different preset variations to add some velocity and filter action.
Deve.

Mesursur

Ok, thank you developer for making that clear.

lite

@Deve: Thank You very much for the information. So the software runs on an old Mac with classic OS. I still have one in the cellar :) Would it be possible to use this software for compressing sounds to the ddrum4? That would be so great! :-)

@Bill P: That's very interesting! The ddrum4 would be much more powerful if the proprietary sound format would be published and own multisamples could be transfered into it with all the features as the stock sounds have. Did you edit the the MIDI files with a hex editor to change the values? I wouldn't know how to the start trial and error changes.

@Mesursur: Yes :) An experienced ddrum3 user was so kind to provide the button combination recently: http://unofficially-ddrum.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ddrum3&thread=25&page=1#71

@nonoduweb: yes, the ddrum3 sounds and its related settings/filters can be played via MIDI as well. Also the effects depending on position and damp (pressure sensitivity when holding down the drum head) are responding to MIDI.

nonoduweb