Multi-Channel Outputs (to Focusrite 18i20) via MIDI ?

[TheROTH]

Anybody trying to get each individual drums/cymbals from their 2Box Drum-It 3 to multi-channel audio-interface (in my case a Focusrite 18i20) so can have visibility on Pro-Tools for each drum/cymbal?

Obviously there are only 4 analogue outputs (possibly 2 more via Phones sockets) and isn't really enough for sound engineering in (say) Pro Tools.

Love some advice on this and what other equipment I may need, if any solution available.

[Rmiller]

I don’t use protools but I do use Logic Pro X on a Mac. They are very similar. I connect to the DAW via midi and open an instance of addictive drums 2 in Logic. I can then assign each drum to its own track to record as well as play them live from the laptop to an audio interface then to my mixer and out to the speakers. I have much more control of the drum tracks when recorded in midi vs analog wav. I can easily quantize the timing, add effects and so on. Also have full control of the mix of the entire set. IMHO that’s the best and only way to go. Basically the drums and module become a midi trigger I/o interface to a computer. The computer generates the sound via the DAW loaded with a drum VST then out to a sound system. In your case, di3 midi out to midi in on the focusrite. Focusrite to computer via USB to Protools (set up vst software i.e. Ad2, Superior drummer etc. in protools and assign each channel accordingly). In my case when Ad2 is open in Logic, there is a + symbol on the initial track to add more tracks and assign them to the appropriate drum. I would think there is something similar in protools. Computer Output should be to the Focurite via usb then your Focusrite analog outs to an audio system. The only time I do this is when recording otherwise for live play only, I go straight from the di3 analog outs to a mixer then to sound system. I use all 6 outs (1-4 and headphones) on my mixer an yes it does work as advertised. One other thing. If you have your di3 analog outs plugged to the fosrite as well as midi to the focusrite and computer, then you have to choose what sounds you want to hear over your speakers, either the module or the computer vst. If you choose the module for your live sound and record via midi in protools, of course what ever vst sounds were used will be heard during playback. You can load the vst sounds into the module via Lustar software as well. The advantage of using the module for live sound is the reduced latency, even though I haven’t ever experienced much in any situation. Hope all that rambling helps.

[TheROTH]

So appreciate your nice response - and no rambling at all - far from it, I am on a steep learning curve here!

As such, what is a VST and AD2?

On the DrumIt 3, I have the following config in to my Focusrite 18i20:

1.  Kick
2.  Snare
3.  Toms (x4)
4.  Cymbals (Hi-Hat, Ride and 2 x Crash)

What I would like to do (as a minimum) is split the cymbals up and have 2 more outputs and reconfigure the above to:

Output 1.  Kick
Output 2.  Snare
Output 3.  Toms
Output 4.  Crash Cymbals (x2)
Phones 1.  Hi-Hat
Phones 2.  Ride

Is this easy to do?

[Rmiller]

Virtual Studio Technology (VST) is an audio plug-in software interface that integrates software synthesizer and effects in digital audio workstations (DAW).Protools is a DAW.  VST and similar technologies use digital signal processing (dsp) to simulate traditional recording studio hardware in software.

AD2 is Addictive Drums 2 by XLN Audio. It is a VST for edrums.

You can easily configure the 6 analog outs (1-4 and headphones) on the di3 module to any combination of cymbals, drums or hi hats you like. Read the other post on output options. You might want to find some YouTube tutorials on Protools, VST’s and midi.

  You can record in any DAW using analog (physical audio outs from module to the ins on the focusrite and from there to the computer (DAW) via usb. Midi is not used in this case and the recording is in wav. You are restricted to the number of analog audio ins and outs I.e. 6 with the di3 giving you 6 audio tracks.
  When recording utilizing the midi out from the module to midi in on the focusrite then usb to computer DAW and now using the VST plug in within Protools, you can record each individual drum, cymbal and hihat on their own track I.e. 10 drums and cymbals = 10 midi tracks. You also have much better and easier editing capabilities.

It’s not all that complicated once you understand it but may seem so at first.

[TheROTH]

And can I disable all other sounds going to the phones?  I only see Bus 1 to 4?

[edtc]

hello

You can use MIDI in a clever way to record multitrack ...

If you record a midi track of your playing in your DAW , it s possible to multiply the discrete audio channels without limitation  ...

You can even record some sounds in stereo ( as most cymbal , snares and toms are stereo waves in the module )



you can for example record on the first pass :
- 1 MIDI track
4 audio outs from DI3
- 1 mono kick
- 1 mono Hihat
- 1 stereo snare

then you replay the midi track on your DAW , muting (on the MIDI track) the instruments you allready recorded  on the first pass , and re-arange the output busses to your needs ...

you record 6 outs from DI3 :
-mono ride cymbal
-mono percs or whatever you need  ...
-stereo mix of toms
-stereo mix of cymbals

if you need more you can do a third pass

It s better imo to keep the headphone out for monitoring purposes on the first recording ...

It s also possible to record only the midi track + a stereo out as a draft  , then ,   you chose the take you like better  , and re-record the audio in 2 passes ...



IMO snares toms and cymbals sounds much better when played in stereo most of the time...
Ok , in studios or gigs , most of the time you only have one mic on toms and snare , but you also have overheads microphones that give a stereo image of the kit .
Just try to listen a 2BOX stereo snare sample , then listen to it in mono , you'll hear the difference ...

[Rmiller]

And can I disable all other sounds going to the phones?  I only see Bus 1 to 4?

I am not sure you fully understand how the buses and analog outs work as well as midi. There are only 4 buses for analog. There are 6 analog outs. Channels 1 and 2 are the main outputs, 3 and 4 are outputs that recieve audio from buses 3 and 4. You can assign anything you want to 3 and 4 but they are tied to the bus. Channels 1 and 2 can be direct outs from the entire mix or can be assigned
to buses 1 and 2. You assign what pad goes to what bus or any combination. The last 2 analog outs are the headphone outs. They recieve the entire mix the same as the direct outs. You don’t assign or disable anything going to the headphones since it gets everything (the mix). You just turn the faders down for what you don’t want to hear. The faders control what is heard in the mix not on the buses. Not to be confused with the volume controls for each pad or the gain for that matter. When assigning things to a bus, you are basically isolating those instruments from the mix and sending only those signals to the buses assigned output. You are not removing them from the overall mix. Thus since the headphones only recieve the entire mix you can hear it all unless the instrument not wanting to be heard is faded out. Look at a real mixer board and the channels vs the buses vs the faders etc. Di3 is electronically setup that way.
The Midi out has absolutely nothing to do with the analog outs. Read up on what midi is and how it works. I then think you will have a better understanding of it all. Must understand the basics first. Your focusrite is a good audio interface and has all the capabilities you need to produce good sound. The di3 has a good sound card as well so remember when plugging in to the interface you are using the interfaces sound card. The only time it is necessary to use the interface is when recording to a computer using analog outs or using the interface as a midi i/o to trigger VST’s and/or record midi tracks and sending the computer outputs to a sound system.

[TheROTH]

Thanks!

So is it possible to go on the MIDI Out to operate Superior Drummer 3 or EZ Drummer 2? 

If this is possible, do I need a MIDI to USB conversion cable? 

Unless of course I go Drum-It 3 MIDI Out into the Focusrite 18i20 MIDI In, then 'somehow' get that to work within Superior Drummer 3 / EZ Drummer 2(?).

I keep hearing that you can play directly from 2Box into the EZ Drummer and the drums operate at the same time as you hit your own electronic drums.

[Rmiller]

No need for midi to usb cable. Just get a standard midi din cable. Plug it in to the di3’s midi out and to the focusrite midi in. Plug the focusrite usb to the computer. The usb connection will handle the midi coming from the di3. Make sure you set up the computer to use the focusrite as it’s input and output audio, not the computer’s internal audio. Also set up your computer midi port/ ports to recieve midi signals from the focusrite. You will need to research a tutorial on how to set up the ports. Mac is fairly simple. Not sure about Windows, may need drivers. The di3 is somewhat strange the way the default midi channels (not midi port) are setup in the module. It has them set on channel 2 (16 midi channels are available). The industry standard for the midi drum channel is channel 10. I would advise changing them all to channel 10 in the module. As an example you can plug in a midi keyboard controller into the focusrite and assign it midi channel 1 in protools or a stand alone VST. Create a midi track in protools and choose an instrument for that channel I.e. a piano, synths, guitars, horns or even drums. There are thousands.  Midi controlled VST’s (or Logic au’ s don’t care what device is sending a command as long as the software is receiving a midi command and responds with the sound assigned to it. That’s why you can have multiple different controllers assigned to different tracks each on their own midi channel.  Once you get all that setup, open the software you want to use. If using superior drummer directly (you can do that), you will need to make sure it is using midi channel 10 on the correct port from the focusrite. Also make sure the audio out is set to the focusrite. Or you can open protools and open an instance of superior drummer within protools. Again make sure the ports are correct and assign midi channel 10 to the drum tracks and the protools audio outs to the focusrite. The module (now acting as a midi controller on channel 10) will trigger the computer with the appropriate midi command, the computer software (superior drummer in this case) will recieve it  and trigger the appropriate sound I.e. the snare chosen in Superior drummer will sound when you hit your snare pad as long as it is mapped correctly. Most drum VST software let you choose the module you are using during the setup so the mapping lines up correctly to a chosen pad.Snare to snare, Tom 1 to Tom 1 etc. Sometimes you may have to map a few things individually. The di3 manual gives you the midi notes (0-127) that correspond to each trigger output. Sometimes it’s displayed like notes on a keyboard. The superior drummer software will have a learn function when assigning midi notes and pads if necessary.
One other thing. You do not need to use the analog outputs of the module into the focusrite for this scenario. Midi will trigger the software which will send the sound via usb to the  focusrite and from the focusrite analog audio outs to the sound system. If you do plug the analog audio outs from the module into the focusrite , you CAN get both sounds, one from the module and the one from the computer VST so you would need to mute one or the other. Depends how you have set up the mix in the focusrite. If you don’t want to use the VST (Superior drummer etc) and want to record sounds directly from the module to protools, this can be done by using the analog connections from the module into the focusrite analog inputs. The focusrite will still need the usb connection to the computer but not the midi din connection. You then select audio tracks from within protools, instead midi VST tracks. You are now limited to the number of audio (wav)drum tracks based on the outputs from the module. In this case 6 from the di3. Since your focusrite has more inputs then the di3’s outputs, you can connect other instruments I.e. guitars, vocals etc. and create more audio tracks. Protools can have about as many tracks as you can imagine both audio wav and midi in the same recording. It can combine tracks and bus them, create stacks etc. Just the tip of the iceberg. Protools has a very steep learning curve and I suggest getting a good reference book for it. It’s a great program.
Now with all that said you are just going to have to dig into it all and figure it out for yourself. Do the research, read all the manuals, look up tutorials and best of all experiment. It will open up a whole new world in music. Youtube is loaded with tutorials on Protools,  Superior Drummer, setting up midi in Windows or Mac etc. Do the research, I can only help with understanding the concepts. This is a very detailed explanation but I think you may have need of it to get you started.

[TheROTH]

Many thanks for this!

I have a MIDI cable coming today so will try all this over the weekend.

I have this Pro-Tools 101 book which is very, very, good.  It is also available on YouTube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2j9ouggZI8

There is a brief description of the MIDI in Drum-It 3 manual, page 53 in the .pdf version.

[TheROTH]

I have now purchased Superior Drummer 3 (SD3) !

Getting all set up but what a latency nightmare!  I am running this as stand-alone and NOT using Pro-Tools at this stage.

I am struggling to get much volume out of SD3, even though the SD3 mixer sliders are right up.

Maybe I still have to sort these MIDI ports out.  But not sure about configuring MIDI ports on the Laptop when there aren't any?

Also, I still have the outputs connected from DI3 to the Focusrite, so will pull them out this morning.

It's so annoying getting the sound a split second later - it's unplayable as it is.

[Rmiller]

Midi ports are not physical ports on the laptop, they are setup thru the midi mapper app in Windows 10. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/84817/using-the-midi-mapper. Midi will come from the usb connection between the focusrite and computer. Make sure your input and output source is the focusrite and defiantly not media player. As for volume, check your focusrite software and make sure that the analog outs going to your sound system are setup correctly and the volume level is appropriate. Also check the gain settings in SD3 if there are any, not just the volume. You want the gain set for each drum to achieve max output when struck at hardest hits. Same way as done within the module without clipping (digital clipping occurs at 0 dbs). Not real familiar with SD3. Check the buffer settings in SD3 and the focusrite. The lower they are, the less latency but will require more processing power. Your computer needs at least 8 mg of ram and a fast processor (at least a dual core is recommended also). Latency problems will result from slow processsors, not enough ram memory, or high buffer settings usually above 512.  If buffers are set at 256 and the computer is slow, there WILL be delayed results or blank outs because the computer is trying to catch up. If you are using a fast computer, then it will be just a matter of getting the settings right through out the system. One other thing is which device is set as the master clock for midi, the computer, module or the focusrite. It can only be one. Another settings item within each item.

[TheROTH]

This is my laptop and spec.  I would have thought not bad....?

  https://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/reviews/msi-gp62-7rd-leopard-pro-review-1655016


Regarding 'Master Clock' for MIDI, where the hell do I find that out??? !!!!

[Rmiller]

Computer is good. There is midi clock, midi sync etc. There are different midi timing protocols. Most don’t apply to your situation but you need to familiarize yourself with them especially when you start using protools. Like I said before, read up on midi, what it is, what it does and how it works. Midi.org is a great place to learn about midi. Dig in to that site then go back into your settings and you will understand what you are looking at. YOU NEED TO READ IT until you understand it. Hear is a link to what midi sync is. http://www.songstuff.com/recording/article/midi_sync/. It really is not that complicated. Read the manual to SD3. Read the manual for the focusrite. READ THE MANUALS.

[Rmiller]

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/categories/200693675-Tutorials