Latency Live!

[Coda]

I played at an outside gig Saturday night and experienced some serious latency - it was a though I had a pretty delayed echo on the snare. It was intermittent but seemed to get worse as the evening wore on. Eventually the snare all but stopped working. I switched the cable to my BT1 and used that to get me through the last two tracks. I'm not sure if this is a live latency issue or perhaps a failing trigger. I used a brand new cable on the snare and ride. One variable is my large monitor was slightly behind me and fairly close to the snare.

Anyway, I will look into it further. I bought some Triggit triggers - used one on a tom with a failed internal trigger and it seemed to work well. I will try one on the snare channel.

It's such a pain. I have some great sounds but triggering live seems to be an issue.

It's a shame you're having such problems, for me these things really destroy my mood and confidence (which is never that high to begin with).
I've rebuilt my snare maybe a dozen times with DIY triggers, because I wasn't ever 100% satisfied. Lately I fitted a Wronka that I bought from someone off here, and while I imagine it might be more consistent, it's not perfect with regards to rim triggering. The only advice I can give you, is whatever trigger you use, make sure any soldered connections are also glued (I use a good quality hot-glue for this purpose). If you glue the connections on the piezo, use sparingly or sensitivity will suffer. Liberally hot-glue all solder connections to jacks, and even loose wires should be glued at regular intervals to the inside shell to stop vibrations in the wiring causing false triggers.
Good luck.

[welshsteve]

So the last few weeks I've used the TD15 and a jobeky real feel hats and the 2box module and it's great. I mean, probably not as good as real set of hihats/Gen16 but it's cured the latency when I'm forced play next to the bassist with an 8x10" cab.
I was frustrated at first with the dynamics of the Td15 for a while but since I've reduced the gain it's opened up their dynamics greatly. Still not fantastic sounding hats but in the thick of the band music, only my ever so critical ear picks it up. So for the larger picture, I'm happy about it.
When the drumit3 comes out I might exchange the td15 for that and still use the jobeky hats. But that's a bit off yet.

[Coda]

Actually thats the biggest complaint people have against the Gen16 - that the cymbals sound lacking, and that they can sound trashy (my own experiment shows this is due to improperly placed pickups). In the phones this is true, but in the mix they sound perfect, because when playing normal cymbals one of the first things the FOH sound guy does is cut all the lows off the cymbals. Result - Gen16 sound

[AndyMo]

Yes Coda - it was a great gig but become frustrating and worrying as my snare started repeating and failing before more or less failing all together. Interestingly, I was using real hihat cymbals - my 2box hihat is unreliable and lacks feel for me. I'm very interested to try the Gen16s as your experience with them seems positive.

I'm hoping my issues were a failing trigger rather than a module issue. I will try a Triggit (I bought a set recently and am using one on my low tom with good results). if that works, I may well opt for that approach on all drums and carry a spare.

Placement of my monitor may have been a factor but I'l check, once I get the kit set up again at home. I also had a problem with one of the cymbals, I was getting a choked sound when it was struck firmly. I expect it was the o-ring or prong issue - but I will double check that too, once the kit is set up again.

It's good to hear Steve has resolve the issues with his kit - and good to hear your Gen16 hihat is working well.

[welshsteve]

Re cymbal choke. In addition to checking the rubber ring, check all
the prongs too. If one of them is even slightly touching the bottom plate that will make  the sound choke.

[wildhorse5678]

Ive not experienced any latency live. Ive used module with mk11 kit, roland pads and triggit triggers on acoustic drums. I tend to use the headphone output with a split cable one going to my drumamp monitor and the other to Pa so it can be boosted if needed. Only issue ive had was with an Alesis 400 drum amp that kept cutting out when played loud. Ive gone back to old Roland monitor

[AndyMo]

Thanks for the updates.

I'll double check the cymbal. I am optimistic it will be an easy fix (o-ring and/or prong alignment).

Regarding latency, etc., it has been noticeable on my snare. The snare all but failed at the gig - so perhaps it was linked with the internal trigger's slow demise.

I will try a Triggit on the snare and see how I get on.

Thanks!
Andy

[welshsteve]

I trigger a 12" tama piccolo with a trig it and a silent stroke (with a fair bit of dampening underneath  as it needs it) It works like a charm!

[Darthsleader]

I use a maxed-out kit with 32gb expansion and have also noticed latency, but mine was definitely not due to volume (we all use IEMs). Mine seems to be caused by the hihat- if I'm playing busy and doing fills over 8th notes on the hh pedal, it starts to get a little laggy. If I chill on the hihat and don't play so much it straightens out. It's a bit frustrating but workable.

Lately I've been using the Gen16s (5 cymbals, pickups on both hh cymbals, 2 DCP processors). It's definitely a tradeoff since the Gen16s have their own limitations and a thin sound, but the crashes are awesome. The splash is decent (I had to mess with the preset a lot), China is pretty good (I use O-rings too and bottom in the sensor screw to cut down the harshness a bit), and the hihat is thin but extremely realistic. However, I just can't stand the ride. I've messed with it endlessly and even bought the L80 version for a darker sound- but the low "gonginess" of the ride is not present. It sounds like you're riding a thin crash. So I use a trigger cymbal for the ride and Gen16s everywhere else.

Advice: mixer EQ can be your friend. Boost some mids (somewhere in the 300-500hz range) to get a little more warmth, and cut a bunch of really high stuff (there are some prominent overtones around 6.8k). Also the DCPs are kinda noisy. I use a gate with a very low threshold to eliminate this.

Jer

[welshsteve]

When you use Gen16 with the kit, I am assuming you don't get latency? Since I have been using a Roland module just for hihats, I haven't had any, even with a noisy bassist. I have come to a conclusion that it is a processor limitation of the module, exemplified when there's low bass frequencies near the kit.

[Coda]

Thanks Darthsleader for the opinions. I have just the 13" HH (I experimented with two pickups and it's definitely the way forward, I will order another pickup soon ), and the 18" C/R which I am quite happy with as a ride (I don't know what you're using, you didnt say) but it definitely could be better - theres very little 'deep ping' if at all, and the bell is lacking too. I'm wondering if I should go back to my triggered ride and use the gen16 ride as a crash...
Steve, I have only had the gen16 for a couple weeks now and have not noticed any latency at all, practice or live, but to be honest I didn't suffer that much from it. What I did notice some time ago though is when I built a few new kits without the tuneup option, it did increase the tendency for latency issues. I think when you make tuneup-able samples, the frequency they are natively played back at decreases (which is why you are warned about lower sound quality), which in turn makes less workload for the module, which is more noticeable when you have multiple zone, multiple layer dsounds, such as in hihats.

[welshsteve]

Tunable samples, you mean when you're building your own DSDNs? The option on the right of the app which you can get it's unable range? So tunable dsdn = little/no latency, no tuning = latency issues (given the conditions... lots of cymbals, notes being player, foot hats, noisy bassists, low frequencies at high volumes etc) ?

[Coda]

Other way around. If you want to tune up the sample to a higher pitch you need to specifically create it like that at export time, OR you need to use dsound tuner to adjust the sample.
Regular samples are 44KHz, but I suspect you say "I want to be able to tune this up to +6 pitch" then some jiggery-pokery happens and the sample is created differently and at a lower native frequency (maybe 32KHz?) which is played back faster to get to the higher pitches.
At least that's how I am guessing.

[AndyMo]

I use a maxed-out kit with 32gb expansion and have also noticed latency, but mine was definitely not due to volume (we all use IEMs). Mine seems to be caused by the hihat- if I'm playing busy and doing fills over 8th notes on the hh pedal, it starts to get a little laggy. If I chill on the hihat and don't play so much it straightens out. It's a bit frustrating but workable.

Lately I've been using the Gen16s (5 cymbals, pickups on both hh cymbals, 2 DCP processors). It's definitely a tradeoff since the Gen16s have their own limitations and a thin sound, but the crashes are awesome. The splash is decent (I had to mess with the preset a lot), China is pretty good (I use O-rings too and bottom in the sensor screw to cut down the harshness a bit), and the hihat is thin but extremely realistic. However, I just can't stand the ride. I've messed with it endlessly and even bought the L80 version for a darker sound- but the low "gonginess" of the ride is not present. It sounds like you're riding a thin crash. So I use a trigger cymbal for the ride and Gen16s everywhere else.

Advice: mixer EQ can be your friend. Boost some mids (somewhere in the 300-500hz range) to get a little more warmth, and cut a bunch of really high stuff (there are some prominent overtones around 6.8k). Also the DCPs are kinda noisy. I use a gate with a very low threshold to eliminate this.

Jer

Interesting to hear about your experience with latency (there is definitely a theme) - and also your positive experience with the Gen16s (bar the ride).

With my latency issues last weekend, I had something similar. If I eased off the snare, the module sorted itself out. Perhaps the failing trigger played havoc with the processor. 

I think I may have to try the Gen16 route too. I used acoustic hats last week (the venue was small enough that I didn't need to mic/mix the hats) but had problems with one of the 2box cymbals, which added to the frustration mid-gig.

With your ride, do you attach a trigger (Stealth trigger, for example) to the Gen16 ride?

Thanks,
Andy

[Darthsleader]

Hi guys!

Gen16 questions:

-I never have experienced latency of any kind once I've started using the Gen16s. Cymbals are very long samples to play, and the hihat especially is generating tons of data. It really takes a load off the module to use Gen16s!

-Yes, pickups on top and bottom cymbals is definitely the way to go with the hihat. If set up properly, you can really dial in the foot chick attack with the bottom cymbal volume. Open "rattle" sound is so much fuller too.

-Ride: I have the 20" Gen ride and the 20" L80. The L80 is better but neither work satisfactorily for me. I love a clangy ringing bell and a nice gongy dark hum. Gens just can't do those things.

-Ride trigger: I'm using an old Hart Dynamics model that's rather odd- it's a black plastic plate that's the shape of about a sixth of an 18" ride. (As in, if you cut an 18" pizza into six slices, this is one slice. Haha). There's a rubber pad on top. Then, it has a realistically sized rubber bell as well. Each has its own piezo. Takes some fussing in the module, but it is an excellent trigger overall! No choke and no edge, but I don't use those on the ride much anyway. I've ordered an awesome 20" real 3-zone trigger cymbal from Field, which should be here in July. I will report.

Jer