Hihat issue

[Klejnstrup]

So I am having trouble with the hihat (surpriiiiiiise!  )

I've bought the Jman mod, so (hopefully) it's not that...

At my last band rehearsal, I experienced 2 things: my edge zone is to loud and i don't really like the sample it plays. It has happened on every Superior Drummer hihat I have exported and I am pretty sure it also happens with the stock hats (though it's been a while since i played them).
First I tried to split my hihat file with Dsoundtool  and copy/paste the bow samples to the edge and then generate a new hihat with the bow samples both on the bow and the edge. If I could get that to work, I would be perfectly happy, but it stille sound so much louder on the egde than on the bow..
I then tried to lower the volume og all the edge samples in Dsounstool. I lowered it to 50% but it was still too loud.
At this point I am starting to think that it's me who are the problem, not the module 

Furthermore, I also tried adjusting the footsplash, which is also too loud. I tried replacing all the samples in  the dsnd file with the quietest file, but it sounded like they all were the samme volume :S
Then I tried lowering the volume in Dsoundtool til 50%, still too loud.

What am I doing wrong?

Thank you!

[Coda]

Not sure what your issue is, if the edge zones and the bow zones sound OK on the computer when you audition them with dsoundtool...
Regarding footsplash volume, it's controlled by a different parameter in UNIT settings on the HIHAT page. You'll notice you can change the sensitivity from -6db to +6db.

[Jman]

As Coda mentioned, there is the footsplash sensitivity setting. There are also settings for the Hi Hat cymbal : Gain, Threshold, Curve, etc. On the side of my HH box there is also a KOhm dial which is adjustable from 50 KOhm to 0 KOhm. 50 KOhm will totally shut off the HH cymbal sound. Also, you didn't mention which HH cymbal you are using? I mention all that because since it is not the original 2Box HH cymbal the parameters for your cymbal need to be setup for best response. By getting the Bow zone of the cymbal setup so it is only reaching top velocity on your hardest or almost hardest bow hits .... it should get you in the ballpark where the HH cymbal reponse is what it should be. I do find most 2Box HH dsnds have a louder edge sound than bow, both in stock 2Box dsnds and ones built from most VSTIs .... but that can be adjusted like you mentioned in Dsoundtool.

Basically the goal is to set your HH cymbal parameters so you only reach the maximum velocity on your hardest hits ....... Play around with those settings is my suggestion. You can also try a few of the Velocity curves to see if that works for you.

[Klejnstrup]

Sorry for the missing info!

The issue is that my hihat sound exactly like I want it - when played only on the bow. If I hit the edge it gets very loud and I do not like the way the edge sample sounds. To me, it doesn't sound like a acoustic hat. I just sounds weird
The thing I don't get is that when i listen to the dsnd on my mac, it sounds great. The edge sound is not that much louder than the bow sound and the sample itself really sounds different. I know I sound like a moron, but it really fells like the dsnd behaves differently when played on my kit than it does on my mac..

I am usind a Roland cy-8 as the hihat.

I am playing a gig with the kit on Saturday and I can only get to the module before the gig - I don't have an opportunity to set up the kit. So I will tryk to make a hihat dsnd and lower the problematic volumes way down as a temporary fix until i figure out whats going on.. I'll play around with the settings some time after the gig

As far as I understand you, Jman, the knob og the box will turn the whole hihat down. I only want the edge sound to be turned down (preferably to trigger the same sample set as the bow, but I couldn't get that to work either).

Thanks to both of you!

[Jman]

Sorry for the missing info!

The issue is that my hihat sound exactly like I want it - when played only on the bow. If I hit the edge it gets very loud and I do not like the way the edge sample sounds. To me, it doesn't sound like a acoustic hat. I just sounds weird
The thing I don't get is that when i listen to the dsnd on my mac, it sounds great. The edge sound is not that much louder than the bow sound and the sample itself really sounds different. I know I sound like a moron, but it really fells like the dsnd behaves differently when played on my kit than it does on my mac..

I am usind a Roland cy-8 as the hihat.

I am playing a gig with the kit on Saturday and I can only get to the module before the gig - I don't have an opportunity to set up the kit. So I will tryk to make a hihat dsnd and lower the problematic volumes way down as a temporary fix until i figure out whats going on.. I'll play around with the settings some time after the gig

As far as I understand you, Jman, the knob og the box will turn the whole hihat down. I only want the edge sound to be turned down (preferably to trigger the same sample set as the bow, but I couldn't get that to work either).

Thanks to both of you!

Yes, I understood. Quite a few are using the CY-5 as HH cymbal. Some with the CY-8 I believe also. I will PM you with a link to one member here that has setup his Cy-5 and was not getting the edge sound the way he wanted and got that worked out with the proper setup. Setting up the HH cymbal correctly as far as the parameters though is more about specifically looking at the response when on the Unit Parameter page. On that page you can see the velocity response of the zone and by adjusting you can get to where the head and edge response are triggering closer to the same velocities on your hits. It is important.

[Jman]

I also sent this to you in a PM. But thought it would be good for reference.
Additionally, just to be sure. One of the most important things with the setup of the Stealth 2Box mod is the Gap between bottom and top HH cymbal in the calibration. Believe it or not, it will affect the way the module interprets the head and rim zones and their reponse. The problem the user had that I linked was that he had too small of a gap when setting up his calibration. He was able to calibrate but the edge was not being detected correctly and sounded "weird". When you calibrate make sure you have a gap of over 1" when fully open, wider is better, so try a gap of 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" if possible. And in the file you downloaded from me there was another tip on a small step at the end of calibration. Refer to that after you finish calibrating.

The 2Box HH system is much different than other brands, in this chart by Manfred he shows a little about how the Magnetic Hall sensor is detected and the zones, etc. and the part about too narrow of a gap when setting up the calibration is key.

Hello,


The problem i mentioned with too strong magnets is an overlap between open bow and closed edge. Let me try to explain it a bit more detailed. Both zone detection and level detection are done by measuring the current through the sensor. With my regular hihat and regular magnet i had the following values:

Level       Zone         Current

open        Bow           4,58mA
closed      Bow           3,98mA

open        Edge         5,99mA
closed      Edge         5,40mA

The following picture illustrates that. The x-axis shows the current through the sensor (not true to scale):




By using a stronger magnet you can extend the range between open and closed for both zones. But this also means that the gap between both zones is getting smaller:




By using a magnet which is too strong the gap between both zones tends to zero. And if this gap doesn't exist anymore the module can not differentiate between open bow sounds and closed edge sounds properly.



But i could only get that at some early tests at my desk with a very strong magnet and a very small distance between sensor and circuit board. Assembled to the hihat stand i didn't see this anymore.

Regards, Manfred

[Coda]

That reminds me.
If your magnet is too close to the board when calibrated, when you hit the edge you will get a zone 9 instead of a zone 8. That will give you a loud 'chick' sound. I think this is what is happening.
You can verify this if you play the hihat while looking at the hihat page on the module, top-right of the screen will be some data, you might need to press the button above it to change the information, can displays db velocity, midi velocity, zone, with each press.
I changed out my strong neodymium magnets for a weaker (but larger field) ferrous magnet. Yeah the old-school magnets. I can now calibrate the hats with the magnet closer to the sensor board, and I have more travel on the foot between zones, which makes it easier to play.
BTW - I don't have Jman's hh module so my neo magnets may not be the same strength as his.

[tassuperkart]

PM sent Simon
E

[Klejnstrup]

Problem solved!

tassuperkart wrote me and told med that he calibrates the hh with the maxnet being 12 mm from the box and 30 mm when fully open.
In addition, Jman gave me a tip: After the calibration, set your hh stand so that the magnet is a little bit further away. This will give you a smoother action.

My hh is now working better than ever

Thanks for all your help!

[Coda]

Great to know.

Unfortunately I tried to play my kit yesterday and found that my hi-hat is not working any more

[Drum2]

Piëzo, pedal or both?

[Coda]

Pedal. I've checked all the cables (first suspicion) so it's probably the board. I've got a spare but no time to wire it up, so my drumming will have to take a vacation for a couple weeks.

[Drum2]

Probably a loose solder joint or wire.

[Coda]

Nope, my soldering is so good, it doesn't get 'loose'
The only thing I did between two sessions was lift up the module to finger tighten a holder screw, then I put it down and clamped it again. That's why I immediately checked cables, it's the only thing that was disturbed.
If I go to the calib page, the hihat says " - " meaning its not in range or connected. When I press the edge switch on the VH-11, it changes to display "=" (meaning fully open hihat).

I think the hall sensor board is dead.

[Jman]

Nope, my soldering is so good, it doesn't get 'loose'
The only thing I did between two sessions was lift up the module to finger tighten a holder screw, then I put it down and clamped it again. That's why I immediately checked cables, it's the only thing that was disturbed.
If I go to the calib page, the hihat says " - " meaning its not in range or connected. When I press the edge switch on the VH-11, it changes to display "=" (meaning fully open hihat).

I think the hall sensor board is dead.

Yup, if you get the  " - " on the HH calibration screen the hall sensor is not detected. And if I remember right it has nothing to do with whether it is in range of the magnet. I've had a few bad boards/hall sensors over the last few years. I test every one on my kit. With a good board/hall sensor, even if the box is not anywhere near the magnet, like sitting aside and not even under my HH pedal .... the calibration screen will start. But if a bad board/hall sensor is tested you'll get the  " - " indication, no matter how close to the magnet it is. Of course, if the cable were bad, it could do that too. But if you already eliminated a bad cable ..... Also if something has gone wrong with a jack, solder joint, etc .... it could cause it. I have had a couple bad board where I believe it was just a bad hall sensor, but on a couple others, going back and checking, redoing solder points solved the problem. And there was no indication the solder points had any problem (I've been soldering for at least a couple decades...  ) I just went back and redid most of the solder points ...... since I was about to throw the board in the trash anyway ..... 

By the way, I have heard that inserting, pulling out the HH cable while the module is turned on can cause that problem with the sensor/board (fries the sensor). It has happened with the original 2Box Hi Hat from what I have heard. That might explain your issue. I've pulled the cable with the module on and haven't run into that ...... did it out of curiosity ..... but I quickly pulled it, and and quickly inserted it .... If the cable were not inserted all the way for a little longer time that might be the difference. J