Author Topic: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?  (Read 6659 times)

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« on: February 12, 2016, 11:31:56 PM »
Hello fellow drummers. By way of intro: I'm something of a veteran - well, I'm an old man actually. I started playing in the 60's when I was a kid. I've played acoustic drums most of my life and then electronic kits later as well as hybrid kits 'til about nine years ago when a left arm injury brought it all to an end.

Although I have no delusions of playing professionally again, I've really become interested in setting up an new e-kit in my home for my own pleasure.

I used to have both Ddrum3 and Ddrum4 modules as well as a Roland TD8; which was one of their earlier models. I used a variety of triggers including Ddrum, Roland, Yamaha, Boom Theory and other odds and ends and some DYI stuff too. I sometimes triggered Roland and Ddrum simultaneously.

So I do have a bit of experience in the area but I'm way out of touch on any sort of new developments etc. but my positive experience with Ddrum is why 2Box caught my attention recently.

So what I'm trying to find out is if the 2Box module will be compatible with a different brand called KAT and their KT4 kit. (DW Drums recently bought KAT, I believe). The KAT kick pad is mylar and snare/toms are large rubber pads -- something like some of Yamaha's rubber pads with a large-ish metal plate+piezo embedded underneath. My Drum3 snare pad had a mylar head over foam over a metal plate with piezo soldered to it and it was awesome. The Boom Theory kit was similar but had thin plywood plates under foam.

I don't care for the feel of mesh nor do I like the Roland hot-spot due to piezo in center and I'm not too interested in piezo triggers at the edge either - like Drumit5. Now, I hope it's not sacreligious or some sort of an offense to post this here -- but these are the KAT details. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KT4d

From what I've read the KT4 module is somewhat entry level-ish but everything else is pretty good; especially the rubber pads. But I'm in western Canada and no-one here has either KAT or 2Box on display so I can't find out what I need to know in person.
 
Basically, I'd like to buy the whole KAT set-up, minus the module, and plug it all in to a 2Box module.

Kind of a shot in the dark question, I know - but do any of you know if these to products would be compatible or can you offer anything else that might pertain to the question?

Thanks! :-)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 04:56:06 AM by Drumster »

digitalDrummer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
  • Karma: 33
  • www.digitaldrummermag.com
    • View Profile
    • digitalDrummer - the global online e-drum magazine
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2016, 12:22:08 AM »
Welcome to the forum.
Firstly, I don't think the KT4 is shipping yet. It made its debut at NAMM a few weeks back and it is their "flagship" kit. I think you will struggle to buy the components separately on such a new product.
But, to answer your question, the pads will all be compatible with the 2box module - with the exception of the hi-hat controller. Both 2box and the KT4 use proprietary systems.
There are plenty of options with the 2box module, including converting acoustic kits with internal or external triggers.
digitalDrummer magazine has reviewed almost all the options, testing them with a 2box module. You can search through back issues (all free) or purchase a compilation of trigger reviews. (www.digitaldrummermag.com)
editor and publisher of the only dedicated edrum magazine

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2016, 07:18:55 AM »
Thanks dD, I had no idea such a publication existed. I looked at the compilations list and didn't see a title that jumped out at me; have you any idea which one would cover the details of 2Box + various triggers?

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2016, 06:54:47 AM »
Well, I went to digital drumming.com and ordered the Trigger compilation for $5 USD. However, what I received was a lot of stuff about VSD; I'm not even sure what that is. I emailed Allan asking him to correct this and am awaiting a response.
Btw, while I'm waiting, what does VSD stand for? I see it's mentioned a lot in the e-drum context but have not seen mention of what it's an acronym for.

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 05:55:07 AM »
Got the problem sorted out and spent a few hours reading the trigger compilation this morning. I have a little trouble with definitions and semantics I reckon. The material was interesting but didn't resolve my question. When I refer to a "trigger" I also include e-pads & e-cymbals; anything used to trigger a sound as compared to something that actually makes a sound.

So although the various trigger devices attached in or on acoustic drums are triggers and are well covered in the write up, the individual pads from various companies such as Yamaha, Roland, KAT, 2Box etc, are not tested through various other-brand modules. So I still don't know if a KAT snare pad will work on 2Box or the new AVT ad5 module.

The key question for me, (and I hope someone can chime in with clarification) has to do with the snare rim. I believe it's triggered by a piezo on the 2Box Drummit5 - as with most 3-flange rim pads - as opposed to what I used to call an fsr trigger such as found embedded in the edge of early Roland cymbals (eg. PD8) and evidently on rims of some Yamaha snares/toms. But I'm not sure about any of this.

The KAT snare & tom pads appear to use a non-piezo sensor for their "rim"; it's a full circumference, raised rubber collar sort of thing. Whether it's an fsr or piezo or something else that might not work with 2Box, I don't know. I do understand the hi-hat could be an issue although possibly Jman could help with that.

I'm not at all up to speed with current triggering tech found in pads/"cymbals" nor with the terminology but hopefully someone more savvy than myself can clue me in.

Cheers!

digitalDrummer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
  • Karma: 33
  • www.digitaldrummermag.com
    • View Profile
    • digitalDrummer - the global online e-drum magazine
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 06:39:53 AM »
Drumster, if the compilation didn't adequately meet your needs, let me know I'll shoot you a refund. The product description says its a guide to internal, external and aux triggers.
And it's VST, not VSD (Virtual Studio Technologys a software interface that integrates software audio synthesizer and effect plugins with audio editors and recording systems).
editor and publisher of the only dedicated edrum magazine

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 07:15:38 AM »
Hi dD. Funny you should mention product description. I ordered from this page... http://www.digitaldrummermag.com/Compilations.html and didn't see any product description aside from what the heading implies and I was going to send an email suggesting a detailed description be offered; from what you're saying it's shown somewhere else on the site where I didn't see it so putting on the above page would be a good idea.
While I'm at it, do you know where I can get data on non-piezo rim sensors? Am I correct in calling them fsr's?

Anyway, I'm not complaining here but I was looking for specific info and will certainly take you up on your refund offer. All the material was well written and if you're the author - "Allan", kudos to you on your writing chops!

digitalDrummer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
  • Karma: 33
  • www.digitaldrummermag.com
    • View Profile
    • digitalDrummer - the global online e-drum magazine
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 04:19:36 AM »
No, FSR is a separate technology. You're referring to piezo/switch (as opposed to piezo/piezo).
editor and publisher of the only dedicated edrum magazine

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2016, 06:55:43 AM »
So if edcito was unable to trigger a KAT pad's rim with 2Box, one would assume KAT rims are "switch" whereas 2Box module is designed for piezo... is that about right? Could you refer me to some sort of "e-drum basics" page so I can learn about these things?

Of note: KAT has a F/B page... https://www.facebook.com/KATPercussion/photos/a.480299161990599.108058.427676303919552/1054485261238650/?type=3&comment_id=1056855851001591

I asked and was told KAT pads are piezo/piezo... just adding to the mystery. Assuming the KAT person who responded is correct, I wonder if maybe edcito's settings were off. Why else might it be that piezo/piezo pads wouldn't work properly on his 2Box brain?

I'm obviously still in research mode here but I sure would like to be able to trigger those nice 11" KAT pads with 2Box.

Coda

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Karma: 26
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 08:56:24 AM »
Just something jumping out at me which makes me think you have a fundamental misunderstanding... you trigger the 2box module with the pads, not the other way around. Maybe semantics, but seeing as you're looking to understand this stuff I thought you'd appreciate being corrected.

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2016, 06:02:07 PM »
Thanks Coda but no, that's not something I'm confused about. The difficulty has to do with the range of modern sensor types and that not all pads/triggers behave in the same way with a given module. Specifically, my confusion has to do with the "switch" type trigger Allan mentioned as well as "fsr". How do these work? What are their applications? I have a void of data on their basics.

Evidently, not all modules respond equally to different inputs from various trigger types. And it's not as though all pad/trigger types are necessarily interchangeable with all others in conjunction with a given module. AFAIK, various modules usually have settings to more or less accommodate differences between trigger types etc.

Based on my admittedly out dated knowledge, piezos are pretty much the go-to choice for triggering heads. As for rims - well, there's a bit more to it and this is where I'm puzzled.

If 2Box module is designed to work specifically with piezos for both head and rim sensors (for snare) and if KAT pads utilize piezos for both head and rim, then why would KAT rim be completely dead with 2Box module? In my experience a module's pad choice settings allow you to find the optimum response for whatever trigger type or brand is being used but even on a less than optimum setting, there will still be at least some response if the components are at all compatible.

My suspicion here is that the F/B responder to my question was mistaken in saying KAT pads are piezo/piezo; otherwise there should have been at least some hint of a response when plugged into edcito's 2Box instead of being "dead". Not only that but AFAIK rim piezos are typically solid mounted to a single resonating part - such as a lug screw, which is directly connected to the rim. Otherwise a piezo is located under a foam cone contacting the head.

But the KAT rubber pads do not have "rims" as such. Possibly there's a solid floating hoop embedded in the rubber or something like that - but I doubt it. I suspect it's simply not utilizing a piezo sensor at all for "rim" and that the person who responded on F/B is perhaps more  a sales guy that a tech guy. That would mean the KAT's rim has a sensor incompatible with 2Box; "switched" maybe? ...which is something I have no understanding of.

Somehow I will find out about this stuff and let you all know. I think 2Box makes an amazing module but frankly, I'm put off by the kit's small pads and poor mounting; in all videos I've seen the toms and especially the kick, bounce around like they're on springs. The snare is solid because it's in a separate stand.

The other possible choice is the new ATV aD5. From what I've seen I think it's fair to say that anything compatible with Roland (and possibly others too), will be compatible with aD5. That would make putting a kit together much easier than it seems to be with 2Box... but I'm not a fan of Roland pads either. I'm really interested in these 11" KAT pads and frankly, I don't even care if they're single zone except for the snare.

If any of you reading this can direct me to info on how "switched" sensors work and what their applications are or anything else pertinent to this, I would certainly appreciate it.

Thanks!

edtc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Karma: 51
  • 2-Box S/N 01155
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 04:04:11 AM »




If any of you reading this can direct me to info on how "switched" sensors work and what their applications are or anything else pertinent to this, I would certainly appreciate it.

Thanks!


- A switch is just a momentary switch ... like a footswitch for a keyboard , or a door bell ...
When tou hit it , current is passing ...
It s the same than cymbals with choke ... they use a switch ... it s not even a sensor like a piezzo is ... it s just ON/OFF ...

- I dont know why you focus so much on the kat kit ,  If you like the old DDRUM pads response , why dont you get a cheap second hand DDRUM kit , and some 2 Zones E-cymbals ....  it would be perfect with a 2box module ... You ll just need a 2BOX hi hat , or any 2zone E-cymbal with a HIhat conversion box .... or why not a real hihat ...:)   Zildjian makes a low volume model that il like a lot ...

- About the AD5 with Kat pads , some people says that the toms are juste 1 zone , so it would work the same than the kat pads into Edictos 2box module ...

By the way , many of us are splitting the toms inputs to have more cymbals or toms ... I just have one zone toms and it s ok for me ...


have a nice day ....
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 04:08:04 AM by edtc »

Drumster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 07:27:16 AM »
Hi edtc! Thanks for the response.
To answer your question: the snare pad I used to like so much was a Ddrum3 which are next to impossible to find any more. I used it live and it was acoustically pretty noisy too; I want something quiet for my apartment now. And I played that with a Ddrum 3 module which it was meant to go with. (Incidentally, I sold the dDrum3 module on ebay to Billy Givens of ZZ Top. Can't imagine why he'd want it unless it was for Mr Beard.)

Aside from that, I want something new to fool around with anyway. Like you suggest, I may cobble together some dis-related brands or whatever - such as a rack off ebay with KAT toms, Yamaha kick, Roland or Yam snare and Zildjian perforated cymbals with JMAN stealth triggers. And either 2Box or Roland HHat depending on whether I go with the aD5 or 2Box module.
 
I really like to understand how things work and right now I'm still confused about the switch thing. I built a maple e-snare once with a piezo/cone trigger contacting head and a second piezo glued to an angle bracket attached with a lug mounting screw. Two channels were used; one for head, one for rim.

In the case of a "switch", if it isn't a sensor and doesn't actually trigger a rim hit, then what does? If there's only one piezo in play then that would have to be it ... but how that would work is unclear to me. The KAT pads are definitely two zone as seen in videos and I'm almost certain the aD5 tom channels are single zone.

Again, thanks for the comments.

Coda

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Karma: 26
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 10:14:19 AM »
I sold the dDrum3 module on ebay to Billy Givens of ZZ Top.
Gibbons is known to buy all sorts of stuff, he's a bit of a collector.

edtc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Karma: 51
  • 2-Box S/N 01155
    • View Profile
Re: 2Box module with KAT TK4 pads/cymbals/rack?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2016, 10:25:27 AM »

In the case of a "switch", if it isn't a sensor and doesn't actually trigger a rim hit, then what does? If there's only one piezo in play then that would have to be it ... but how that would work is unclear to me. The KAT pads are definitely two zone as seen in videos and I'm almost certain the aD5 tom channels are single zone.

Again, thanks for the comments.

not sure about it , but as i figure it out , the switch is just telling the module if you hit the edge or not .
I guess the piezo registers the force of the hit for both zones , and the switch tells if it s a center or a rim shot ....

like JMAN says , it s no rocket science ... :)