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2Box Drumit 5 Forum => DrumIt 3 and DrumIt 5 Software - PC / Mac => Topic started by: Louis on May 23, 2012, 09:11:39 PM

Title: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Louis on May 23, 2012, 09:11:39 PM
digitalDrummer has written a guide on how to create DSND files from Addictive Drums (thanks a lot!). You can find it here: http://www.shortestpath.se/dsoundtool/manual/addictive.html
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: BURNIN AMBITION on May 23, 2012, 09:15:22 PM
excellent work to both of you. what troubles me a bit is that we use many different host programs (live, cubase, reaper etc) and i wonder how much different these settings will be in the host i use for example. anyway ill give it a try and thank you all for another great tutorial
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: digitalDrummer on May 23, 2012, 09:35:10 PM
The guide is really more about Reaper than AD. In essence, if you're using Reaper as a host, it's pretty much the same process for any VST. So, you could use SD, BFD, etc - it's almost a generic approach.
I'm far from  a Reaper expert - been using it for a couple of weeks, but I followed the logic of the two other step-by-step guides for SD and BFD - and it seems to work well.
And Reaper has a free trial offer - fully functional. And it's very reasonably priced when you want to buy.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: BURNIN AMBITION on May 23, 2012, 10:20:44 PM
well to be honest it took me ages to learn ableton live. i am not a fast learner. and still i have troubles with bfd dsnds (they will be solved soon with the videos of brian etc). ill try to make similar things to live, using your guide alan. but first things first, ill learn bfd. once i am done, ill post agin here. thank you for a terrific job
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jovato on February 06, 2013, 02:59:47 AM
I just made a couple of cymbals from Addictive Drums.  Many thanks for the great Dsoundtool.  I use a Mac, so Reaper isn't an option.  I just thought I'd share that Plogue Bidule works amazingly well for this purpase (and about anything else you can think of). 
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: digitalDrummer on February 06, 2013, 03:14:26 AM
Quote from: Jovato on February 06, 2013, 02:59:47 AM
I use a Mac, so Reaper isn't an option. 
Why?? Reaper works perfectly on Mac.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jovato on February 06, 2013, 04:28:17 PM
Doh, I guess I'm showing my age.  For some reason I thought Reaper was still Windows exclusive.  Thanks for straightening me out.  I have discovered that samples made from Addictive Drums trigger more reliably when they have fewer layers.  When I recorded them with 24 layers, I got weird spikes at the upper end of the volume spectrum and a lack of dynamics in the middle.  When I cut them to 15 layers I get a nice linear response curve.  I know Addictive only has 12-15 layers anyway and the rest are horizontal samples.  I'm wondering if there is something loopy about how the horizontal samples come accross when you make a DSND.  Has anybody else noticed this?  Another thing I noticed is that the dsnds I made only allow the pitch to be adjusted down in the module.  Up was simply not an option.  Is this standard?
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jovato on February 06, 2013, 11:24:29 PM
Okay.  I think I've figured this out- at least for snare drums.  The magic number for layers when sampling Addictive Drums seems to be 16.  However, this isn't entirely straight forward.  First, you use Dsoundtool to create a .dsnd file with 15 layers.  This provides for a great natural dynamic range- with one caveat.  If you are using the variable setting on the 2Box, your loudest hit will get switched out about every third strike with the next loudest sample.  On a tom this isn't a problem- it sounds good.  On a snare drum you need to be able to reliably generate that maximum top velocity for a two and four back beat- and for reliable rimshots.  So, you need to crack open the DSND file you made and clone the loudest layer.  Then rename all the layers (adjusted up by one)  This means the loudest 2 layers are identical (they are just numberd 0 and 1).  This still provides for a great dynamic range with nice variabilty throughout the spectrum.  The only difference is that you can be assured of the maximum crack every time you need it.  Otherwise it just sort of jumps out every third strike.  I have tried adding more layers from here, and it only hurts the dynamic range.   The top gets bunched up and the middle velocities are flat.  I'm sure, this is because AD only has 12-15 velocity layers to begin with.  I will have to see how things work if you have an instrument that is sampled more deeply.  My first pass at sampling a snare in BFD ECO didn't yield satisfactory results.  The sound was fine, but the velocity mapping was terrible.  I need to do real work now.  I needed to do it yesterday.  This weekend, I hope to experiment with cymbals.  I will say that once you get a sample right, you can expect a spontanious ear to ear grin.  It is just too cool to be able to get exactly the sound you are looking for.  All of this has also made me really respect the original sampling that the folks at 2box did.  The original samples sound great next to VSTs.  The only reason to look beyond the module is because you want a specific sound.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jman on February 07, 2013, 02:38:03 AM
There is a choice in the module for Layer:
Variable, Fixed or Top, by default it is set to Variable .... this is what it does:
- Variable, a certain trigger level will start a semi-random layer as
long as it is close to the trigger level.
- Fixed, a certain trigger level will always start the same layer which
best matches the trigger level.
- Top, any trigger level will start the top most layer.
In all 3 cases, the layer level will be as the trigger level.

I have reset mine to Fixed on the kits I've built from VSTs ... especially if there are plenty of layers, samples, a lot of variation ... that way you end up with less surprises on the way the dsnd plays IMO.
Something you can experiment with anyway.

But in the case of using a small no of samples like 16 your method plus leaving variable on in the module is probably good to keep from too much of the machine gun ....

When you get into some instruments in other VSTs that have a larger no. of samples/variables I think it works fine to set to Fixed.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jovato on February 07, 2013, 03:49:44 AM
Makes perfect sense.  I had somewhat come to this conclusion, myself- That I would use more sample layers and set the module to Fixed when I was sampling an entire kit.  However, I wanted to be able to just drop these snares into kits with the existing toms (which I think definitely benefit from the Variable setting).  I'm curious what others are doing with Addictive Drums and what results they are getting.  I have to admit I'm quite pleased.  With 15 true velocity layers per zone, these samples sound and respond great (and they are not very large file sizes).  Since the intent is for live play, these cut through quite nicely.  Maybe I'll post a link to them and others can tell me if they suck or where they could be improved upon. 

I have the original BFD Jazz'n'Funk files on a hard drive.  Some of those drums are over a hundred layers deep.  I would just have to reload BFD 1.5 as I don't have BFD 2.  I have been using BFD Eco for live play since it has such a light footprint.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jovato on February 07, 2013, 04:02:32 AM
Also, I'm wondering if anyone has any input on the pitch issue I discussed here.
http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php?topic=1642.0

Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on February 08, 2013, 02:03:09 AM
two other things about layers. firstly, you will find that most sample libraries will not have a linear sampling, they will tend to have more layers clustered around the most used part of the dynamic range. the second thing is that most drum sampling programs will do some kind of volume scaling to interpolate between layers.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Jovato on February 08, 2013, 05:01:21 PM
Understood.  Again, I'm curious how others are sampling AD and how they like what they are getting.  Too me, the few AD samples I have made match up well with the stock 2box toms and lend themselves to live play. 
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 05, 2013, 12:45:32 PM
i don't have AD, but there is no way that it can be one layer only.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 10:22:30 AM
as i said i don't have any AD stuff, but again i really doubt that is the case.

AD uses their own proprietary sample format, with some kind of data compression and a variable bit-depth scheme. what are you doing to work out how many samples there are?
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Krillo on May 19, 2013, 10:28:28 AM
Quote from: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 10:22:30 AM
as i said i don't have any AD stuff, but again i really doubt that is the case.

AD uses their own proprietary sample format, with some kind of data compression and a variable bit-depth scheme. what are you doing to work out how many samples there are?

Please see the link to the other thread that I put earlier in this thread. I do the same procedure as digitaldrummer describes in his tutorial. I then put each of the 127 hits on its own channel. Mute all exept No.1 and No.2, phase invert No2, move the sample until it completely cancels out No.1. If it does, they are the same. Continue w. 1 and 3, then 1 and 4 etc. All samples should be normalized.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 10:57:26 AM
Quote from: Krillo on May 19, 2013, 09:29:40 AM
The top 8 layers have a different EQ but all 127 velocity layers are the same sample.

call me a skeptic, but maybe there is something wrong with your testing methodology.

for starters very few multisampled instruments of any kind have 127 layers anyway, so 127 MIDI velocities is not the same thing as 127 layers.

and how on earth can you conclude from a phase cancellation test that the top 8 layers are the same sample with different EQ applied?

if you create a MIDI file with the same note and velocity played 20 times in a row, do you get the same sample each time? are you sure your AD settings aren't messed up somehow?
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 11:20:06 AM
mate, i'm not shooting the messenger, i just don't believe that AD would have the exact same sample for every kit piece, when there should be 12-16 depending on the kit. if what you are saying is correct then the entire standard AD package should only be tiny. your assertion implies that they are padding their gigabytes of samples with copies of the same sample, or just useless dummy data. it just doesn't add up.

i haven't seen your setup, or your testing methodology, so given the above, my scientific mind is skeptical.

and you didn't answer my other question: how can you tell from a phase cancellation test that some layers only have EQ applied to the same sample? that statement introduces more doubt into my mind, since it actually isn't possible to do so, unless you know exactly what EQ algorithm and parameters were applied in the first place, and can then apply the reverse EQ to the sample.

don't take it personally, i am genuinely curious as to why you are seeing what you are seeing. there are a lot of unknowns from this end though.


Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 11:24:00 AM
right, i just downloaded the AD user manual. one of the sampler settings is this:

“Single Sample” mode
Makes AD play only one single sample across the entire velocity range, and uses no alternating samples. Gives you that ”old-skool kool” drum machine feel!


have you got that turned on???
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: Krillo on May 19, 2013, 11:34:17 AM
Quote from: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 11:24:00 AMhave you got that turned on???
oops  8)
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 19, 2013, 11:36:18 AM
dude, mystery solved!
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: fishmonkey on May 20, 2013, 12:26:40 AM
haha, it's all good.
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: logihack on December 06, 2020, 10:47:54 AM
i have ad1 with retro, funk and reel machines adpaks and i also have ad2 with pop, heavy united and fairfax1 adpaks. All new samples are deeper sounding while ad1 sound is thin compared with ad2.
At that time i realy liked funk, but now, not much. Is there any difference with older adpaks if played in ad2 engine?
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: logihack on December 21, 2020, 12:16:18 PM
Nobody uses AD1 and also AD2?
I guess i wasnt clear enough. :)
I have ad packs for ad1(retro, funk, reel machines) and SDSE samples, sounds very dull, flat, thin, compared to newer adpacks for ad2(pop, heavy united, fairfax...)
Those ad1 adpaks are also available for new engine, but must buy them again.
Is sound quality of those adpaks the same?
funk ad1 vs funk ad2? What is the difference?
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: ANGR77 on December 21, 2020, 06:35:37 PM
Hi!

I am an old AD1 and AD2 user ... but it was a long time since I used the AD1 version. I am pretty sure that all purchased ADpaks for AD1 automatically was converted to AD2 without any extra cost - sure about this?

I would say that the AD1 and AD2 is quite similar in terms of sound...(but I don't recall all features from my beta session of AD2.)

The newer released packs sounds better...like Fairfax etc.

Best regards

Anders /www.Zourman.com

Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: logihack on December 22, 2020, 08:20:23 AM
im sure that i dont have funk, retro and reel machines in ad2 library, but must have also ad1 engine to use them. Or am i missing something?
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: ANGR77 on December 22, 2020, 12:17:31 PM
Do you have the AD1 ADpaks registrated at XLN?

If running the XLN installer (cloud based) ... with your account I am quite sure you will see one section with the AD1 packs and one section with AD2 packs. In my case - all bought packs shows up twice...below the AD2 section and then also below the AD1 section. (I own all ADPaks :-) so all packs are shown twice )

Best regards

Anders / www.Zourman.com
Title: Re: DSND files from Addictive Drums
Post by: logihack on December 23, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
of course i have all products registered. In xln installer in AD2 section i can see just ad2 adpaks. For ad1 adpaks i was forced to install also ad1 engine, so i can see retro, funk and reeel machines, just in ad1 section in xln instaler.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Can-I-Use-Addictive-Drums-1-Ad-Packs-with-AD2-m3194770.aspx