Cymbals 3 Zones not working correctly

[Erle]

Question about The cymbals? I can sometimes get the 3 zones. However, when striking the cup, it has to be struck hard in order to get for instance the bell sound but quite often it will also activate the rim crash sound. This is disconcerting as I am loath to use the cup in a session for fear that I will get a rogue crash in there. Maybe in future incarnations, they will fix this problem or maybe there is a simple tweak. However, I have tried everything so far, adjusting the "Curve" settings and db settings, threshold etc. This happens with both cymbals. Unlike the pads which have separate settings "MORE" that can be adjusted, the cymbals do not have any separate settings for the cup and bow etc. ?
Well, having done some research since posting this, I have discovered that this is perhaps a design fault! No-one it would seem can get the cymbals to work correctly as they are stated to work. If this is true, I don't know why 2box would put something onto the market that was half baked? Cymbals are a very important part of a drummer's life and if we are afraid to use the cup for fear of activating the edge, then the cymbals aren't worth using!
 

[Slap the drummer]

Hi Erle -

Speaking only for myself I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a fix.... three zones does not mean three triggers
(as for instance I believe the pad rims are actually separate triggers), so the module has to "decode" the signal to
calculate which part has been hit.  Is that ever going to work?

What I did was get a CY8 and an extra stand on ebay (didn't cost a lot) and I run it into one of the spare channels
with bell sounds assigned.  I have it overlapping the larger 2box ride cymbal and it works great.

Ever since I have never worried at all about it!  Money well spent 

----
As an additional point, three zones from 2 triggers is very common and is used by all the big brands I think.  Also
it never really works that well if you ask me.  Give me a dedicated trigger ever time, and then you can really play
with confidence!

[Erle]

Thank you for that: Why didn't I think of that! Actually 2Box said to me "You have found the weak spot"! I will do what you have done. The Roland cymbals seem to work perfectly with only two triggers and 3 zones. And if 2Box would maybe make a different cymbal, the whole kit would beat them all.
Kind regards
Erle

[edtc]

What you tell about having CRASH sound as hitting BELL hard sounds to me more like a hardware issue :like if you have some short circuit happening on "ring" ...

  to have a crash sound , the module has to detect a hit with the "Bell piezo"(TIP) , and a switch on the side switch (RING) at the same time.
   Hitting the bell cant trig the side switch ,so maybe , it s a cable or a bad contact close to the bell or the plug ... or something loose inside.

  I have build my own 3 zones cymbal , and for me BELL/BOW works pretty well as soon i ve set the  appropriate gain ... but my cymbal is a real metal one , and i think it provides a sharper  signal to the brain than a rubber coated one...

  I also use the side of the stick to hit the bell ( as you normally do on real cymbals after all ) that gives a louder signal to the trigger  ... the fact i know where i ve put the piezo helps perhaps a bit ... to have a bow sound , i aim the bow and hit with the tip ...

 Even if there is just 1 piezo and a switch ,  IMO it could be possible to have some curve , sensivity treshold and volume settings , to tweak the RIDE cymbal different zones , in a way to match everybody's playing style...
  I find the EDGE velocity and volume a bit brutal on some rides ... maybe this comes from my DIY cymbal.... never tried with a 2box one ..

I agree we could customize this in DSOUNDTOOL by adjusting each samples , but it would be very long , and dificult ...

On crash cymbals , it s less crucial ,but still it could be cool to have some settings

   One other thing on cymbals , is i find they arent fast enough to trigger and a bit "jittery"... mostly when you begin to hit them... i use a real acoustic HIHAT on my kit ,just side by side with the ride , and i can feel the diférence really well ... the ride comes "later" rear the hihat .

I hope next OS will adress those issues for good .

[fishmonkey]

What you tell about having CRASH sound as hitting BELL hard sounds to me more like a hardware issue :like if you have some short circuit happening on "ring" ...

most likely it's not actually a crash (edge) trigger but a loud bow hit, which can sound very similar, depending on the samples used for the cymbal.

as far as we know, this is a limitation of the current cymbal design that cannot be overcome with firmware.

[Erle]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I agree that it is a hardware problem and SHOULD be fixed immediately. I mean, it's like selling someone a car without lights, saying that it is a limitation with the lights! I have had to buy a separate e-cymbal just for the bell sound! I use the drums in sessions all over Europe and it is very unprofessional if I am hitting a bell sound and a crash comes blasting through thus ruining that take and we have to start again or try to drop in! Any professional producer will not put up with that so until it is fixed I cannot use this particular kit. AND it SHOULD be a FREE re-call and fix once they have fixed the cymbals. But I'll bet my life on it that it will not be that way! The rest of the kit is great and I would use it in any professional session such as that just done in Paris with Celine Dion's producer, but the cymbals let this kit down to a 3 out of 10 for me. And I WAS going to get the more expensive Roland TD20: Should have! My son,m also a drummer I have advised to get the Roland.

[fishmonkey]

if you watch the zone triggering in the module, i think you'll find that it is actually loud bow hits that are triggered when you don't hit the bell hard enough.

unfortunately i agree with you about the unsatisfactory cymbal performance. if you like to finesse your cymbals, then the current system is a disappointment.

i am surprised that 2 Box haven't sorted this out yet.

[Slap the drummer]

Don't let your son try the 2box or you will end up with a roland 

[Erle]

  He has already bought the Roland at twice the price after trying the Drummit 5. He loved the normal drum sounds and the way it plays, but not the fact that he cannot rely upon the cymbals! He is a jazz/rock drummer as such used a lot of finesse on the ride which just doesn't work unless you really hit it with the edge of the stick. ANd until 2Box offer to replace the cymbals free of charge (as they should for such a shoddy job) I will also probably put my drummit 5 onto Ebay but no-one will buy it as essentially, it comes without cymbals!!

[roel]

He has already bought the Roland at twice the price after trying the Drummit 5. He loved the normal drum sounds and the way it plays, but not the fact that he cannot rely upon the cymbals! He is a jazz/rock drummer as such used a lot of finesse on the ride which just doesn't work unless you really hit it with the edge of the stick. ANd until 2Box offer to replace the cymbals free of charge (as they should for such a shoddy job) I will also probably put my drummit 5 onto Ebay but no-one will buy it as essentially, it comes without cymbals!!

as I said many many times here on this forum the cymbals esspecially the ride still needs an update...

[edtc]

I will also probably put my drummit 5 onto Ebay but no-one will buy it as essentially, it comes without cymbals!!

If you want to sell it , just post here , you ll have plenty of 2box users wanting spareparts ... there is a special section here http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php/board,5.0.html

sure you ll get quite all your money back by selling it in parts .... i saw a module sold for close to 800€ and a hihat for 160€ on ebay last week ....

I know some guy one post up who wants a pad and a cymbal ... and if you came one week before , you could also sell him your rack 

And if you decide to keep the 2BOX , why dont you use a normal ride cymbal with a microphone , it s not a big deal to do this in a recording session... i do the same at home with the hihat and even a good dynamic mike ( beyer m201) does the trick...

have a nice day

[Erle]

Thank you for all of that. And I will keep it in mind. However, the point is, that 2box are selling a defective product and it's simply the principle of the matter. Why should YOU, me or anyone have to use a real cymbal or any other cymbal when we have paid £1800.00 for something? I sold my DM5 Pro with Surge cymbals in order to get the drummit 5. Had I known, I would have kept the cymbals from that kit.
I work with some of the World's best known producers and session musicians. And the reason for getting an E-kit is so that you DON'T have to mic anything.
It's no good saying to use this or that, as the point is that drummit 5 is faulty and when you pay that much money you expect something that works. Any other business would have done a re-call by now,

[Erle]

OK, I have just installed a Roland CY8 cymbal onto the Drummit in the hope that I could at least have the bell sound only on that cymbal. No such luck! Even tried only taking one of the triggers out to the box via a split cable and that did nothing as they cymbals need both outputs! I am just about to try opening the cymbal and disengaging one of the triggers! All of this because 2box put out a kit that wasn't ready!

[edtc]

Why should YOU, me or anyone have to use a real cymbal or any other cymbal when we have paid £1800.00 for something? .......It's no good saying to use this or that, as the point is that drummit 5 is faulty and when you pay that much money you expect something that works.
....I am just about to try opening the cymbal and disengaging one of the triggers!

I was just trying to give some working solution , ... miking a single cymbal with an E-drum is much easier than a whole acoustic kit ...
   i m not here to defend 2BOX ... I agree that they should do something for the ride cymbal . Maybe releasing a special ride , with a floating BELL you could wire separately to another free input and midimap it to the bell sound...
 
  As you look quite angry , i will stop to give you my opinion ,  but just to say , you shouldnt open the cymbal , you ll damage it for nothing ... there s not a piezo for bell and one for bow , just one for the whole cymbal located on bell , and a swich for choke and crash sound ...
best thing is to do as Slap the drummer said .

What I did was get a CY8 and an extra stand on ebay (didn't cost a lot) and I run it into one of the spare channels
with bell sounds assigned.  I have it overlapping the larger 2box ride cymbal and it works great.

....It so paradoxal to get bad karma while trying to help i hope it s not the same in india ...


have a nice day

[nonoduweb]

+1 for you edtc, thank you for helping people  (does "DTC" mean what I think, in French?)
Another solution, if we can't obtain good settings with cymbals (I don't say that I can), would be not to play with the bell...