2Box Monitoring system tested: Thoughts and Advice

[Baby Samus]

Hi all, just thought I would post on my experiences with using the 2Box through my new monitoring setup.  Hopefully we can have a seperate area for live use but I guess maybe thats what this area is for?  Apologies if its not but TRY TO STOP ME POSTING  

Okay so this is my new rig:

QSC K12 12" top speaker (Active 1000 watts [500 watt cone + 500 watt woofer)
+
DB Sub woofer (Active 500 watts)

So thats 1500 watts of ball bustin power  

After shelling out a considerable sum of money on this, the first time I took it into the studio and plugged it into this rig I was quite disappointed, but happily today on my second try everything came good and there were a few key things which made everything work.  For those of you who are doing something similar I hope this helps...

Sub Woofer

I positioned the sub woofer right next to me.  The sub helps so much as you really feel the weight of the sound but it needs to be close, it feels like hitting a drum now.  Before the sub was on the other side of the room and I couldn't feel the drums, I felt disconnected.  Positioning it right next to me (behind and to my left) you get all the thump you need.  Sorted.

Top speaker

The QSC sat on top of a pole in the sub as is the usual setup, and because the sub was so close the speaker was also very close to my ear.  Initially I thought this will be dangerous as its a 1000 watt speaker at 75% gain, however the sound was passing me by and it was fine because it was so close and just above my ear level.  Perfect.  I then put on my semi-open headphones which protected me enough from any stray nasty feedback, and also had a nice mix of the drums coming through.  The QSC provided all the nice high and middle frequencies that I wanted, and the sub took the load off it as intended.

Cymbals

To make the sound more believable, I use all real cymbals and hi-hats, this makes the illusion of real drums better to the ear.  I tried the 2Box hats and cymbals but they simply eat away too much of the speaker's time.  You can imagine having a constant hi-hat wash in a rock song, well turns out that really takes up a lot of the speaker's time and means it has to work a lot harder to reproduce the toms and bass at the same time.  So my advice to you all - use real cymbals - its an amazing combination.


Module settings

Kit
Toms (12", 13", 14", 16" Gold)
Kick (Record 22" Kick G1D downloaded from 2Box website)
Snare (Nasvall (Swaying between EQ2 from website and normal sample set))

I set the 2Box to output the snare, bass drum and toms to three seperate outputs for the main mixer, and then send one signal to another out as a mix for the monitors.  This worked flawlessly and allowed EQ'ing at the desk (however we have not done this yet) for the front of house P.A system.

I changed every pad to Neg1 velocity curve.  This sensitivity (imo) represents a real drum more accurately then normal in this setting it seems.

Most important change was on the toms.  The 2Box samples were causing all sorts of distortion and as I thought, it was simply the samples lengths being too long and overlapping.  I dialled down the decay as follows:

Snare:  2.0 seconds length.
Hi Tom: 1.0 seconds length. (or anywhere between 1.0 and 1.6 seconds to suit)
Middle Tom: 1.3 seconds length. (or anywhere between 1.0 and 1.8 seconds to suit)
Low Tom: 1.6 seconds length. (or anywhere between 1.0 and 2.0 seconds to suit)
Bass Drum: 2.4 seconds (I think can't quite remember now)

This really made it sing.  Thing is the sample doesn't need to sound in the module for long because the speaker and sub will resonate instead of the sample continuing, and it sounds much punchier.  I think this was the best change I made all day and it confirms my thoughts in an earlier post.

Well, after this was done we felt we had cracked it.  The setup was done and time for testing.  We had people stand 20 feet away as you might do at a gig, and just listen to the monitors, even standing behind a wall!  So for a good 15 minutes we had people standing at different distances and in different places to listen.  Of course all this time I was playing and I knew it sounded good but didn't get a chance to listen away from the kit.  So my brother duly obliged and got behind the kit.  I walked the same 20 feet away and listened.  Let me put it this way - the only time I have heard drums sound this good, this professional is on TV shows or gigs where its a 'name' band.  I have never heard anything like it live in a local venue in Scotland.  Seriously.

So tomorrow I will have more news (maybe we do some EQ'ing and make it sound even better if that is possible!) and I will let you know if I find any more tips.  All  in all its the first time in my life I felt I had the sound to match my playing, and I'm very happy.

Now all I need is a big juicy snare sample set with tons of layers, and I'll be set to go!  (If anyone has one, please PM me!)

[puttenvr]

Thanks for posting and great this rig works for you.

I hope you don't mind, I add 3 points to consider ...

1. As I wrote before http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php/topic,8.0.html the SPL of a speaker system is more important than the number of watts.
Perhaps an other system than '' Active 1000 watts [500 watt cone + 500 watt woofer '' will do the job as well.
Depending on the quality of the sound system, a different amount of watts already can give (for instance) 129 db power. Also important: fast amps and good speakers can handle properly all the frequencies and trancients at any level.

2. I wonder what the set does with other tomtoms (I don't like the Gold toms at all. so I would load different samples into it). Have you tried that, and was it necessary to shorten the sample length as well?

Thing is the sample doesn't need to sound in the module for long because the speaker and sub will resonate instead of the sample continuing, and it sounds much punchier

3. Do I understand this good, that you use the Booming of a sound system more than the sample length of the 2Box?
Sounds kinda Vdrums to me ...  

[rythm]

Thanks for starting this thread. IĀ“m never been into sound engineering my self but IĀ“d like to learn more how to get the most of Drumit in combination with our bandĀ“s PA.
WeĀ“re using Crest Audio 2x1400W for JBL 2x18" subs and Crest Audio 2x900W for our top speakers JBL 2x15". But I donĀ“t know the SPL for the system though, as Puttenvr pointed out.
However I found your advice about decay very interesting and will try that for next gig.
Hope more people can contribute to this topic.

[Baby Samus]

Thanks for posting and great this rig works for you.

I hope you don't mind, I add 3 points to consider ...

1. As I wrote before http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php/topic,8.0.html the SPL of a speaker system is more important than the number of watts.
Perhaps an other system than '' Active 1000 watts [500 watt cone + 500 watt woofer '' will do the job as well.
Depending on the quality of the sound system, a different amount of watts already can give (for instance) 129 db power. Also important: fast amps and good speakers can handle properly all the frequencies and trancients at any level.

2. I wonder what the set does with other tomtoms (I don't like the Gold toms at all. so I would load different samples into it). Have you tried that, and was it necessary to shorten the sample length as well?
3. Do I understand this good, that you use the Booming of a sound system more than the sample length of the 2Box?
Sounds kinda Vdrums to me ...  

Hi Put, just back from the studio!  Yes the SPL is very important and thats another reason why I got a QSC K12 - it has up to 131 db SPL which is tons.  So yes I agree a smaller system would perhaps do the job but having extra headroom is very handy.  At a push this rig can do front of house (I have 2 x subs and 2 x QSC K12's) and a smaller system would not manage this.  IMO its better to have a system that works at 60% of its power, so you have another 40% to play with if you need it for other things.

As for other toms, yes the problem happens with all toms because the samples play for far too long.  When you mic a real drum, its usually dampened a little to stop the drum resonating too much and this is a similar solution.  Also, try hitting a real tom - it doesn't sing out for 10 seconds.  You get your transient then the tail sound but it doesn't last much longer than a few seconds.  Cutting the samples allows the drum to punch and the speaker and sub then resonate the sound out naturally.  Perhaps if I had other samples which were dryer and the toms were already dampened then yes decay may not need to change, but I tried all the toms in the module and without cutting the decay it sounded awful - if I were using headphones or in-ears I wouldn't need to do this, but the sound engineer still wants the decay cut for the front of house P.A (which is far more powerful than my rig!).  So I have tried the 2Box in 3 different rigs now of various power, but the same issue with samples decay times comes up every time.  It works really well (wish I could let you hear it).

As for v-drums, well I had them before set up on a similar rig (not as good as this one) and man it sounded AWFUL compared to this.  I have worked on this setup for around 20 hours now, and this is definitely the way to go.  I will never touch v-drums again  .

[Baby Samus]

Thanks for starting this thread. IĀ“m never been into sound engineering my self but IĀ“d like to learn more how to get the most of Drumit in combination with our bandĀ“s PA.
WeĀ“re using Crest Audio 2x1400W for JBL 2x18" subs and Crest Audio 2x900W for our top speakers JBL 2x15". But I donĀ“t know the SPL for the system though, as Puttenvr pointed out.
However I found your advice about decay very interesting and will try that for next gig.
Hope more people can contribute to this topic.

What do you use for your drum monitoring Rythm?

[rythm]

In ear. I want a clean sound for monitoring, itĀ“s the crowd that needs the big kick in the belly 

[Baby Samus]

In ear. I want a clean sound for monitoring, itĀ“s the crowd that needs the big kick in the belly 

Yeah eventually I want to go with in-ears too, its just the rest of the band need them too for it to work so we're all hearing the same thing.  Plus I don't have cymbal mic's yet and the in ear custom moulds are not cheap.  My ideal setup would be for everyone to have in ears and a little re-inforcement from the monitoring system but man thats a whole lot more cash!  This seems to be the best solution until that day for me.  Its really good though, having that whoomp that you get from a real kit  - when I hit the bass drum I want to feel it!

[rythm]

Yeah eventually I want to go with in-ears too, its just the rest of the band need them too for it to work so we're all hearing the same thing.  Plus I don't have cymbal mic's yet and the in ear custom moulds are not cheap.  My ideal setup would be for everyone to have in ears and a little re-inforcement from the monitoring system but man thats a whole lot more cash!  This seems to be the best solution until that day for me.  Its really good though, having that whoomp that you get from a real kit  - when I hit the bass drum I want to feel it!

You donĀ“t need custom moulds, I use a pair of Sennheisers for less than Ā£70 which works/fits very well. IĀ“ve also heard good things about Beyerdynamic DTX 80 or 100.

We all go in ear which keep volume to a minimal on stage, thatĀ“s also a benefit when playing in smaller clubs. We have individual mix for monitoring. But yeah, sure I can miss the whoomp, but not acoustic cymbals - thatĀ“s like sticking a knife in your ear

[Baby Samus]

You donĀ“t need custom moulds, I use a pair of Sennheisers for less than Ā£70 which works/fits very well. IĀ“ve also heard good things about Beyerdynamic DTX 80 or 100.

We all go in ear which keep volume to a minimal on stage, thatĀ“s also a benefit when playing in smaller clubs. We have individual mix for monitoring. But yeah, sure I can miss the whoomp, but not acoustic cymbals - thatĀ“s like sticking a knife in your ear

Cool what kind?  I really want custom moulds for a good fit but would consider universal fit if they are comfy.  Would certainly save money.  Btw the cymbal mics are more for front of house than monitor mix.  I just mean that all this equipment is prohibitively expensive to me, I don't have much money to throw round.  Pity I don't live in the U.S where everything is like half the price it is here in the U.K.  And we're gonna get 20% VAT.  Sucks to shop here for music stuff...

[rythm]

Cool what kind?  I really want custom moulds for a good fit but would consider universal fit if they are comfy.  Would certainly save money.  Btw the cymbal mics are more for front of house than monitor mix.  I just mean that all this equipment is prohibitively expensive to me, I don't have much money to throw round.  Pity I don't live in the U.S where everything is like half the price it is here in the U.K.  And we're gonna get 20% VAT.  Sucks to shop here for music stuff...

Sennheiser CX 95 Style, bought them in 2008, so IĀ“m not sure that model still exists. They cost me about Ā£70 (todays value) so you get a hint of what level. Live in Sweden myself so I know what you mean with prices and VAT...

[rcprod]

Thanks for the information.

The shortening of the decay times makes sense to me since it is similar to putting gates on an acoustic kit.

Your speaker system should definitely rock the place. I was hoping for something cheaper and portable like the Simmons DA200.

 

[puttenvr]

1. I love in ears and use them every week, but they do miss some whoomp. A bass shaker / butt kick below your drum throne can improve that
2. (in general) the cheaper the in ears are, the worser they sound. You only notice this when you use expensive ones. I had them all, and now use custom moulds, there's no way back for me
3. custom molds are expensive, but they damp outside/unwanted noises and fit in your ears very well as a result of which there is more low. Standard moulds with foam also can leave your ears due to the sweat

[waynec42]

1. I love in ears and use them every week, but they do miss some whoomp. A bass shaker / butt kick below your drum throne can improve that
2. (in general) the cheaper the in ears are, the worser they sound. You only notice this when you use expensive ones. I had them all, and now use custom moulds, there's no way back for me
3. custom molds are expensive, but they damp outside/unwanted noises and fit in your ears very well as a result of which there is more low. Standard moulds with foam also can leave your ears due to the sweat

I finally used my 2box kit live last night (after six months of waiting for the rest of the kit). I'm going to have to go to in ear monitoring. I'm going to run a small mixer from the headphone out and possibly split my vocal mic to run to the mixer also. I can also get a foldback send from the FOH desk if need be.