Author Topic: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?  (Read 422 times)

Cableaddict

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Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« on: January 13, 2019, 06:55:42 PM »
Sorry f this has already been discussed to death. 

I use a DAW (Reaper) for my live performance mixer.  Thus, overall system latency is a constant battle.
I know the Drumit3 is incredibly fast, but I'm wondering if it's worth triggering a vst set inside Reaper, from the module's midi or USB output.

I'm not at all worried about sound quality,  just latency.

I'm sure some of you guys are doing this, both live and esp in the studio. Can you share your thoughts?  And especially have you done any careful latency tests?


thanks.

Cableaddict

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 07:46:49 PM »
Bump.

Really?  Nobody has any thoughts on this?

ANGR77

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 05:20:16 AM »
Just some input...

The trigger to midi part on DrumIt is around 3 ms...so the latency will mostly be generated in the VST + sound card. But a better pc, sound card with native ASIO drivers will most often be the solution to bring down the latency.

Best regards

Anders / www.zourman.com
Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystallite, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, MegaDRUM, 2Box 5 & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.7, all ADPaks moved to 2box(SDSE) Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

nocturnodrummer

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 09:05:17 AM »
Buy SDSE and forget about your problems  ;)

Cableaddict

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 06:01:34 PM »
Just some input...

The trigger to midi part on DrumIt is around 3 ms...so the latency will mostly be generated in the VST + sound card. ....

Thanks, Anders.   Much appreciated.
That's not as good as the 2.3 ms from my Ddrum 3,  but that seems acceptable.  Probably the absolute minimum possible with digital triggering.
 
-------------------------

FWIW:     I may use VSTi's for sounds when mixing (maybe) but I would always use the module's audio out for the drummer & bass player's cue feed,  plus a feed to the throne thumper. Adding even 5 more ms,  (the absolute best case scenario these days, for any kind of complex session) is WAAAAY too much if you want to record a solid groove.  Believe me, I've been there & back!

Krillo

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 06:19:09 AM »
Hi Cableaddict!
We "met" at the ddrum forum. Please see my post on latency measurements on the drumit3: http://www.2box-forum.com/index.php/topic,3932.0.html

Cableaddict

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2019, 12:58:16 AM »
Nice work, Krillo!

- See my reply there.
----------------------------------

I sure wish my Ddrum3 had a masking function. that's the only reason I want to replace it. It works amazing with the original Ddrum kick units,  but with modern mesh kick triggers, I can't get rid of the double-triggering.   

I could keep the Ddrum kick units, but they make a loud click noise, which is quite audible if recording real cymbals, which I do.  Plus I prefer the look of my Hart kick pads, since they look more like actual drums.

Sigh .....

ANGR77

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2019, 06:37:36 AM »
Hi!

I used a mesh kick with my Ddrum4se and that works very well. (16 inch kick...) But You have some trigger settings in Ddrum4se for external triggers.

https://youtu.be/URgH1sgr9YE

Best regards

Anders / www.zourman.com



Sonor Safari, Pearl Crystallite, Zourman Triggers, Roland & Triggera, 2box Cymbals & HH, RT-10, KT-10, BT-1, VH-11/12/13, ATV hh, KT-10, 14C/13R/15R, MegaDRUM, 2Box 5 & 3, DD4SE, Pearl ButtKicker Addictive Drums 2.1.7, all ADPaks moved to 2box(SDSE) Zourman Conversion Gears www.zourman.com

Cableaddict

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2019, 04:55:45 PM »
Thx, Angr.

And yeah, that's to be expected. The Ddrum3 & Ddrum2 don't have those settings.
- But sadly the "4" doesn't trigger nearly as fast.

To paraphrase Any Given Sunday:

"On this team, we fight for that millisecond.
On THIS team, we tear ourselves, and everyone around us to pieces for that millisecond !"

Krillo

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2019, 05:22:02 PM »
I did some testing.

ddrum3 precision pad -> Aphex Impulse (MIDI out) -> ESI ESP1010 at 96kHz samplerate and 48 samples buffer -> Reaper ReaSamplomatic (sample player VST), I got 4,65ms latency.

So that's a tiny bit more than drumit3 "worst case" triggering setting, which gives 4,5ms.

Superior Drummer VST or similar maybe adds some buffering, I don't know. Surely uses more CPU cycles I would guess.

Cableaddict

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Re: Latency - Audio outs vs triggering in a DAW?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2019, 05:45:16 PM »
Krillo, you da' MAN!

-  But in my situation, either recording a full band in the studio or doing live sound for the same, I could never even come close to 96K /  48 buffer.  I'm currently using a 12 core PC OC'd to 5 Gz,  and with a full session (including keyboard VSTi's,  effects, etc,  I can only run 88,2K / 256 buffer. With my Lynx audio system, that gives a true i-o latency of about 8 ms.  Add in the module's midi conversion and that's almost 11 ms.  Switch to a 2Box, and that's 12 ms.   -  WAY too much for the band to play in the pocket.

So, we're both right.

Your setup is the fastest, and quite acceptable,  but (as I see it) it's only applicable for a drummer playing live, using a fast laptop for nothing but drums,  into the PA or an amp.  -  And IMO,  with THAT situation, there's no need for more than the onboard sounds, so why not bring just the module, and have faster response at the same time?

What I'm doing right now with my Ddrum3, and what I will do also with a 2Box module, is that I combine the module's analog output with the PA's stereo cue mix, using a simple mini mixer.  The that goes to the various headphones and the throne thumper. (plus a "more me" send for each musician that needs one.)

In the studio, I also record the Ddrum's midi,  but only so I can replace sounds later, when mixing.

It's a decent way to get 'er done.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 05:49:16 PM by Cableaddict »